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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #26 
Kimberly,

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For me to accuse a specific dog of possessing a genetic negative without first testing, leaves me open to slander, or libel and insulates the owner since no test was conducted to affirm positive, or negative outcomes. If the dog is throwing genetic defects in it's get, then a red flag goes up, but without confirmation through testing, it still remains speculative! Therefore, in all good conscience, one cannot step forward.


I have taken this position for close to 40 years!

If I hear a rumor, I don't become a "rumor monger" as you have suggested.

For example, if I'm told that your dog (hypothetical) carried the Von Willebrand factor, I wouldn't get on the phone to spread the rumor. How could I do that in all good conscience? If you didn't test for that factor, I still would not accuse you of anything, since I wouldn't have first hand info.

I might run a thread on Von Willebrand, or put up a "hypothetical" scenario telling people to test etc.

Would that be wrong to do?
Would it be attacking you, or your dog?
Or, would it be bringing Von Willebrand to the foreground, in order to make more people aware of the disease and the preventative measures that should be used before getting a pup with the condition?

Is it "muck-raking" to speak out on issues that can have deadly affects on pups & mature dogs?

If some "shoes fit" don't blame me, all I do is say test when the test is available and if you don't test, I think "why not" is a fair question, without getting hammered for asking it!

If you need to label me as rumor mongering, so be it! I'll wear that badge proudly if it saves a few from future grief in this breed!

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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #27 
Jamie,

The "arguments" come from others, not me! Just review the thread!

You should be asking why others are reactive, instead of wondering if my approach is less than benign.

Do you test your dogs?

When I questioned the reasons for Tobin's AKC suspension, many felt that I was wrong to do so. I guess some feel that information gathering is a bad thing and can only hurt the breed, I feel the opposite.

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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #28 

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Steve you will twist and spin things to suit your agenda.



What exactly is that "agenda" Connie?

Apparently, you and others seem to be transfixed on some issue perhaps concerning a specific dog. If that is the case, why don't you come forward and tell us who you have in mind, instead of asking me to fabricate a dog from a hypothetical scenario!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Harmony

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Reply with quote  #29 
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It's my opinion that a "negative" Cystinuria test gives many breeders a false sense of security.


Connie, what do you mean by that when speaking in breeding terms?  Do you mean "hey its negative, breed away"  When in reality breeders should still be breeding with caution? 

The entire cystinuria "deal" is very scary.  I feel many skirt away from the test because its so infantile and there are so many different scenarios that breeders form with regard to the test.  But the MCOA health committee says that everyone should be testing and that a positive is a positive and that's that and don't breed.  If you get a a negative you should continue to test every year.   I am not sure I don't believe it does have something to do with diet.  I mean if you can feed your dog a cystine free diet and then test and the test comes up negative WTHeck?   The entire "deal" is a problem right now - its there, but no one can prove how, or why and only assumptions at this point are being made and stringent guidelines being put forth but how many are really testing?  How many are going to the VET having the dog micro chip scanned, having the VET collect the urine and send it in with a formal letter that the urine has been collected from a dog who has been identified by a chip? 

Connnie posted an interesting article about trying to weed out, not throw out, the affected stock.  This is how many use the hip/elbow scoring - they look at it and a lot breed on less than desirable results but hopefully attempt to breed it out...   Should the same be done with health issue of current discussion?  How really should it be handled?

It seems to me that PRA was brought under control (albiet, not until the DNA test was formed, right?) and not so many dogs in the breeding pool were lost??, the breed was not diminished but now the PRA is gone.  Can't this be done with cystinuria or is it just much more wide spread, test unpredictable, etc.  I wonder what will happen when a DNA test is found?

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #30 

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(1/02) Cystinuria Committee Update - Sex-Linked?

We are happy to report that the Mastiff community as a whole is becoming much more familiar with cystinuria, testing methods and why testing is important. Many responsible breeders are testing litters before placing puppies, and requesting or requiring that the pups be re-tested between 18 and 24 months as the research team at the University of Pennsylvania recommends. As most of you know, the test is a simple urine collection which does not require a vet visit but can easily be collected by the owner or breeder 2-4 hours after the dog has eaten. The sample is chilled or frozen and shipped overnight to the Duebler lab at Penn along with a form which is available on the mastiff.org site. Pups can be tested for a $10 charge per pup when submitted as a litter together. Puppies tested before maturity should be re-tested between 18 and 24 months of age for the best assurance of freedom from the disease. The urinary system of young puppies is of course immature and therefore it's best for all concerned to have both an early test and one at maturity for the best picture of urinary health.


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #31 

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IF you have a problem with what others are doing then MAN UP and name names, otherwise you really need to get a grip and take up another hobby other than bulletin board klatching. 


 
So Connie, it's your way, or the highway?
 
I think not!
 
If more breeders were acting responsibly, there wouldn't be half of the issues that have plagued this breed over the years.
 
What I posted hit some nerves and for that I don't apologize!
 
Too much pomposity and rationalization goes on in breeding.
 
One can never know a line well enough to avoid testing their dogs, or making believe as though they observe genetic markers through some process of osmosis!
 
Discounting a test that is not 100% foolproof is no excuse for not testing!
 
Calling me names and considering me a "troll", doesn't change one thing about the issue I presented!
 
 


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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EXCMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #32 
Quote:
Hypothetical............

A well known dog used extensively at stud, seems to be throwing a not so minor genetic defect.

The owners of the stud claim that it's the bitch that is throwing the defect, yet they don't test their stud to see if it's directly genetically related to him.

 
Are we speaking in hypotheticals or are we speaking strictly of Cystinuria?  The discussion, at Steve's prompting, seems to have changed to focus specifically to Cystinuria.  While mode of inheritance in this terrible disease is still uncertain - it is thought to be sex-linked and passed through carrier females. 
 
So - if you were concentrating on Cystinuria all along - wouldn't this question be posed in a much different manner or capacity since it is not thought males directly contribute to "throwing a not so minor genetic defect" without substantial support?  I would think that if they are attributing the issue to the stud, he would have had to be thought to be positive - passed through a daughter to produce a positive son given current thought processes.  That being said - aren't there quite a few variables at stake to pinpoint even hypothetical or theoretical "popular studs" at this point in time?
 
From my understanding - all we can do right now is test our dogs, offer DNA for research, and inquire about testing on outside studs until more data is available.  I don't think we are able to come to any conclusions at this point, hypothetical ones or otherwse?
 
Heather
 
 



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EXCMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #33 
Quote:
If more breeders were acting responsibly, there wouldn't be half of the issues that have plagued this breed over the years.
 
What I posted hit some nerves and for that I don't apologize!

 
Too much pomposity and rationalization goes on in breeding.

 
One can never know a line well enough to avoid testing their dogs, or making believe as though they observe genetic markers through some process of osmosis!

 
Discounting a test that is not 100% foolproof is no excuse for not testing!

 
Calling me names and considering me a "troll", doesn't change one thing about the issue I presented!


It is easy to be staunch in your convictions when only theorizing and not dealing with actual animals or an actual breeding program.  We can be much more apt to speak in specifics WOULD do WOULD NOT DO and/or SHOULD/SHOULD NOT do when we are not the ones personally accountable for our actions nor the ones facing these difficult decisions. 

Heather

 

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #34 

Heather,

The morality of testing, or not testing is at question, not whether I have a present vested interest in making money from breeding, or if I'm presently dealing with breeding issues!

My past breedings and dealings with puppy buyers, gave me hands on knowledge of the issues that one encounters across the whole spectrum of events in breeding! From cancer, myelitus, pyo to bloat and beyond.

Those personal experiences weren't hypothetical and were very breed specific!


Quote:
The discussion, at Steve's prompting, seems to have changed to focus specifically to Cystinuria.

Heather, if you took the time to look, you would see it was in response to Monicas post directly above mine!





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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #35 
Quote:
So - if you were concentrating on Cystinuria all along - wouldn't this question be posed in a much different manner or capacity since it is not thought males directly contribute to "throwing a not so minor genetic defect" without substantial support?  I would think that if they are attributing the issue to the stud, he would have had to be thought to be positive - passed through a daughter to produce a positive son given current thought processes.  That being said - aren't there quite a few variables at stake to pinpoint even hypothetical or theoretical "popular studs" at this point in time?
 
From my understanding - all we can do right now is test our dogs, offer DNA for research, and inquire about testing on outside studs until more data is available.  I don't think we are able to come to any conclusions at this point, hypothetical ones or otherwse?

 
Since YOU raise the issue!
 
If I were solely focused on Cystinuria the question might have been posed different. Isn't that evidence that I was using a broad spectrum approach to the concept rather than singling out any specific illness?
 
BTW, by all accounts the male passes on the problem in cystinuria on it's X chromosome. The male always expresses the disease in sex based issues since the Y can't mask the recessive. The female having two X's can mask and be a carrier.
 
If a pup comes down with cystinuria the sire should be immediately tested!
 
My point is that the sire should have been tested prior to breeding and that it's inconceivable that a dedicated breeder would not test the sire, after confirmation of an affected pup, or dog coming down with the disease.
 

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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Kiokeemastiffs

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Reply with quote  #36 
     I think the important move should be to test (and re-test in some cases--i.e: cysturnia) and remove affected dogs and bitches that produce affected dogs from  our breeding programs.

   There is so much still to learn about cysturnia--the method in inhertience is questionable--so breeders must make an educated guess in what to do.  Testing puppies before placement is a nice gesture--but absoluely worthless in 8-12 weeks old puppies . My biggest fear is that this gives breeders and buyers a false sense of security. ("OH, my puppy was screened at 8 weeks and he is negative"  " I screen all my puppies before I place them and all of them have been negative.")  

It's my understanding, that the recommendation is to wait untill puppies are at  least 6 months--1 year  to get a more accurate result.  A breeder who justifies breeding a dog or bitch (that has affected line relatives) by "clearing" 8 week old puppies with no further follow-up testing is not accurately testing and clearing their dogs.

To simply say that the puppies you have bred were "clear" at 8 weeks does not mean that some may be "positive" at a later date.  We have had a few males who were 2-5 years old before they began exhibiting synptoms (stones) and tested postive.  Only A few develop stones--most do not. All the more reason to test ALL of our boys--even if they don't have any symptoms.

ALL of us involved in breeding should test All of our males YEARLY--even the one we place as neutered pets.  If you do not test ALL the sons and brothers you could very easily miss a female carrier.

I have always given back $200,.00 to any pet puppy owner after they spayed or neutered their puppy.  This year, I am going to ask that my male  puppy owners test their boys yearly at 1 yr, 2 yr, 3 yr, and at 4 years of age--if they complete all 4 tests and send the results to me, I will refund them $200.00.  I call it my "4 for 4 Rebate".

IF a breeder is serious about improving the quality of life  of ther dogs  they are producing and want to make a stand to uncover and correct this genetic problem--then step up to the plate and put your money where your mouth is. 

Have I ever produced a puppy with cysturnai? No--not to my knowledge, But I have also never tested ALL the male puppies I have bred.  I have always insisted that any stud dog I used was tested--and I have tested my own boys. I do not feel that is enough.

 Untill here recently, I foolishly believed one test was enough--I no longer feel a single "negative" test is enough.  To truely claim a male is "clear: of cysturnia require a lifetime series of negative tests.  Yes, a test could be altered by diet change resulting in a "negative" result--but in truth--the dog is not negative.

The only way we can determine the method of genetic inheritance is to test all of our males.  We can all mill around like a flock of pigeons--cooing, complaining and pecking at each other--or we can make a united effort to screen and test as many of our dogs as we can.

Knowledge is power--the more we learn about this disease, the quicker we can get it under control.  I think a  "4 for 4" health study would make a great project for MCOA.  We could  acquire a ton of info that could help UPenn.

I also am very disappointed that at a time when this very ugly disease (cysturnia) is beginning to spread among our dogs that UPenn doubles the cost of the screening test.    We need to see if there is some way we can get a "discount" for mass numbers of tests--like Optigen does for the PRA test.

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #37 


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Kiokeemastiffs

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Reply with quote  #38 
  Steve--your wrong.. It not just the litter sire that need to be tested if male puppies show up postive for cysurnia.  The dam's sire and grand sires needs to be tested too.  It's the maternal side of the pedigree that needs to be  fully tested.

IF this a sex-linked disease--it's carreded in the X chromosome which comes from the Dam  not the sire.  An affected male will only pass an X chromosome to his daughters  not his sons.  His sons will inherit his Y  which will be paired up with one of the  two X's carried by the litter dam ( which she inherited from her sire and dam).

So if a male shows up positive--most likely his Dam is a carrier and either her dam was a carrier or her sire was affected.  That's the danger in this disease--It can go for generations undetected in carrier females until a male shows up  with symptoms or "positive" (which may be only as few as 1 in 6 affected males).

All the more reason to test all the males we produce.

 

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #39 

Cathy,

The sire needs to be tested and the maternal sire & grandsires as well. Quite correct!

Quote:

IF this a sex-linked disease--it's carreded in the X chromosome which comes from the Dam  not the sire. 



The sire passes on his X as well Cathy!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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EXCMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #40 

Well - then there should be continued discussion about ways to positively impact the manifestations of Cystinuria and how to eradicate it or at the very least minimize it's impact on our breed!  Whether the sire is "popular" or not - this is a pressing issue and belongs on a different thread altogether! 

Popularity (which Steve cites as breed wins? although there are MANY dogs appearing many times in pedgirees that are not even finished nor have any points at all?), productivity and the number of times that dog shows up in a pedigree (what the main focus of this thread was based on) in my opinion is a different issue entirely and is not solely of importance due to these specific health concerns by any stretch then!  They impact health and type, and a whole host of things.   

Also - I think it is equally the responsibility of any potential bitch owners to ask about testing and move forward with the level of testing you find to be comfortable for the breeding you are planning.  We are all responsible for our own actions.

Heather


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #41 
from my post #18

Quote:
You're asking unrelated questions.

Popularity is based on the dog in question first and foremost (breed wins etc.)

Next comes productivity. This comes in several forms, either quantity, or quality.

The number of times a "popular stud" is used is not so much the issue.

It's the number of times he shows up in pedigrees that creates the popular sire syndrome!

If everyone wants to have their dog's pedigree contain that popular name, then the genes are flooding all pedigrees over time and creates the syndrome that can have positive, or negative consequences!



Heather, I stated that popularity (in the strict sense of the word) does come from breed wins. I then added that productivity and the number of times he shows up in the pedigree is what creates the syndrome. This "popular" dog does not have to be a dog that was shown, but more often then not, it is!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Harmony

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Reply with quote  #42 
Cathy - awesome posts and well written!!

Quote:
Also - I think it is equally the responsibility of any potential bitch owners to ask about testing and move forward with the level of testing you find to be comfortable for the breeding you are planning.  We are all responsible for our own actions.


Part of your post Heather, and  a valuable "opinion."


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augusta

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Reply with quote  #43 


steve, you wrote:
 
The history of this breed is flooded with examples of popular sires that passed on undesirable traits, which owners of same did not disclose to prospective purchasers.

These range from HD.....

 
--------------------
dogs without hd produce puppies with hd, dogs with hd produce puppies without hd.  the genetic component of hd is unknown and is almost certainly polygenetic.
 
therefore you cannot accurately post that offspring of the stud with hd got it directly from the stud.
 
i'm not disputing your arguement about over use of studs because i believe a large gene pool is a very good idea, but you might want to stick to the facts and not be an alarmist ;-)
 
 
v
 
 
 
 
 
 
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #44 
V,

HD, being  polygenetic, is all the more reason for inhibiting the proliferation of a popular sire with HD, as it spreads those polygenes even deeper into the gene pool.
 
Dogs with HD get it from somewhere!
 
Dogs in controlled studies have reduced HD, therefore it can be controlled, even if the specific genetic marker remains unknown.

A clarion horn is not a fire alarm, and there are those who would be perfectly content in seeing absolutely no change take place, for any method of breeding better Mastiffs!

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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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augusta

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Reply with quote  #45 
HD, being  polygenetic, is all the more reason for inhibiting the proliferation of a popular sire with HD, as it spreads those polygenes even deeper into the gene pool.

 

steve - you can't prove that either, controlled studies reduce hd but not in every single instance, that's why "statistically significant" matters.
 
depending on the cause of the hd in the sire, it may or MAY NOT go into the gene pool in a bad way, we simply don't know.
 
until the genetics are known, all you've got is probabilities and guesses.
 
you might want to phrase it that way, that's all.
 
v
 
 


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #46 

Well every study I've read on HD links it to a genetic cause (forget trauma etc.)and the controlled studies dramatically reduce the incidence (you can't get 25 generations out of these studies and therefore they don't "eliminate" all of the HD dogs). That's why I have no doubt at all that it stems from genetic origins.

Therefore, in my opinion, it IS a genetic factor and IS passed down from those dogs that came before any dog that develops HD!

Others have every right to disagree with my view and lean on probability rather than fact. I am taking a position to the affirmative.

http://www.cardicommentary.de/PDF-filer/Cardigans_HD.pdf


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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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sandragon

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Reply with quote  #47 
LOL Gawd I love these fights..lol they are way to funny..

Back to the subject..

Many times a popular stud dogs gets accused of passing on health issue but NO ONE points to the bitch.. Its not Just the Stud dog as in all breeding's it takes two. But it seems anytime a problem comes up the stud dog is automatically blamed as it being his fault.
As far as popular studs its up to the breeder to research the testing and health of the studs they breed to . If it does not work they dont repeat that breeding. Good stud dogs are hard to find. when you look at a dog dog then you start looking at health and issues when your done there are few without some major problem. So then many go to the tried and true. no its not perfect but neither is breeding.
The thing I see is a dog is used and becomes popular then many health issue pop up  BUT everyone keeps their mouths shut and the stud owner does not tell anyone and keeps breeding him.. YES its going on today with a few males.
 as for cystinuria the big problem I see is dog getting positives then they change diet and retest to get a negative but that negative is all any of the rest of us here about. Sorry a positive it=s that and the dog has cystiuria. so you have to be careful of the lies some breeders tell..

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Lorie
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #48 

How do we control who's urine is being tested?


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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sandragon

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Reply with quote  #49 
Quote:
How do we control who's urine is being tested?


You cant so you have to trust the breeder thats why many dogs become popular studs because they breeders have good reputaions for being honest.. other wise you just guessing.

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Lorie
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #50 
And therefore, a stud's urine, in question, can be switched to prove he's negative!

What a wonderful world!

__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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