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sandragon

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Reply with quote  #51 
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And therefore, a stud's urine, in question, can be switched to prove he's negative!

What a wonderful world!



LOL Breeding mastiffs has never been easy..lol

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #52 
Especially, when some breeders can manipulate test scores, or abstain from testing altogether without fear of any consequence!

No doubt, many professional athletes are envious!

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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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toadhall

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Well every study I've read on HD links it to a genetic cause (forget trauma etc.)and the controlled studies dramatically reduce the incidence (you can't get 25 generations out of these studies and therefore they don't "eliminate" all of the HD dogs). That's why I have no doubt at all that it stems from genetic origins.

Therefore, in my opinion, it IS a genetic factor and IS passed down from those dogs that came before any dog that develops HD!

Others have every right to disagree with my view and lean on probability rather than fact. I am taking a position to the affirmative.



Well in the study I am reading on hip & elbows in large breed dogs done by a breeder who has eliminated hip & elbow dysplasia from his line using a protein step down diet and natural vit c...he states amonst other things...

'Its worth remembering that hip dysplasia was unknown before the invention of commercial dry dog foods came on the market in 1950's'




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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #54 

Nonsense!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #55 

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Canine Hip Dysplasia

 

Canine hip dysplasia is characterized by varying degrees of hip joint laxity (looseness), subluxation (partial dislocation), and ultimately, severe arthritic change. Clinically, the symptoms range from having no clinical signs in some affected dogs to crippling disease in others. In addition, the severity of the clinical signs does not necessarily correlate with the degree of radiographic (x-ray) or pathologic changes seen. Breed and individual differences in temperament may also affect the amount of discomfort exhibited.

Development

Hip dysplasia is a genetically transmitted disease that has been seen in over 82 recognized breeds of dogs. Since first diagnosed in 1935, it has had the highest incidence in the larger breed animals.



http://petsurgery.com/caninehipdysplasia.html

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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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sandragon

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Reply with quote  #56 
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Nonsense!


lol Steve I think you and I had this argument once before. Nutrition plays a large role in health in animals and people. It can contribute to many things including cancer. As does weight.

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #57 
One must consider the fact that X ray equipment and technology, was still very much outside of the typical veterinary office pre 1930's.

Hip dysplasia was about, since breeds started to be manipulated by man.

Determining HD without X ray technology was not an easy task. So to say that there was less HD pre 1950's is just speculation, or a result of drastically reduced numbers of pure bred dogs, compared to todays inbreeding programs & puppy mills!

Food, environment, weight, exercise, etc., all impact HD in their own right, but the genetic impact of HD is separate and apart from those contributing factors.

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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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toadhall

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Reply with quote  #58 
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Food, environment, weight, exercise, etc., all impact HD in their own right, but the genetic impact of HD is separate and apart from those contributing factors.


His study is based on the research of various scientists around high protein levels and resulting growth spurts during critical growth periods creating unbalanced skeletal structures, slow growth allowing elbow joints to grow together better, dogs ability to produce their own vit C and Vit C and collagen production for healthy ligaments.

The point is he has been able to eliminate hip and elbow dysplasia for six generations in a line that consistently produced it prior to this simply using a protein step down diet and vit c.
where is the problem here? Why would you remove dogs from breeding when they have not produced the condition for 6 gen, no dogs are in any pain, their quality of life is not affected, no owners are heartbroken? 

So what is the genetic impact Steve?
A breed that dosn't require expensive, high protein, fad ingredient dog food??????
This is a defect I could live with in my dogs! LOL

personally I am convinced HD and DJD are 'modern' diseases created by humans ..as is cancer, diabetes, cystinuria and many others.

genes mutate as a response to the environment..if our only response is to  'remove' genetic mutations from the gene pool without taking responsibility for the cause.. ...well no doubt there will be more ill health of various kinds ....and a shrinking and vulnerable gene pool.


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #59 


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Well in the study I am reading on hip & elbows in large breed dogs done by a breeder who has eliminated hip & elbow dysplasia from his line using a protein step down diet and natural vit c...he states amonst other things...

'Its worth remembering that hip dysplasia was unknown before the invention of commercial dry dog foods came on the market in 1950's'

 
Karen,
 
I take what any individual breeder says with a grain of salt!
 
This "study" was not what one would consider scientific and more often than not, is self serving.
 
Your above remark, regarding HD being "unknown" pre 1950's, is just plain wrong!

Quote:
personally I am convinced HD and DJD are 'modern' diseases created by humans ..as is cancer, diabetes, cystinuria and many others.

 
http://cancer.about.com/od/historyofcancer/a/cancerhistory.htm

There are many diseases that are ancient and the ones you've named are no exceptions. They are not modern diseases as you have stated. Once we go back in time, say a few thousand years, there are no true doctors, or diagnostic methods to label & validate specific diseases, but that doesn't mean those diseases did not exist since the dawn of creation!

Bacteria and viruses pre date flora & fauna and were waiting for "us" to arrive on the scene. Genetic distortions are also operating 24/7 and give rise to a whole host of disorders, separate and apart from "miracle" cures to the contrary!

Nature controls it's genetic "defects" and man intervening in the creation of pure bred dogs, impacts the genetic outcome and inhibits natures mode of cure.

That doesn't mean that those defects were caused by man, it only means that man has, perhaps unwittingly, increased and protected their expression and longevity!


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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toadhall

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Reply with quote  #60 

 

Quote:
Karen,
 
I take what any individual breeder says with a grain of salt!

 
This "study" was not what one would consider scientific and more often than not, is self serving.

well whatever...you can take it with a grain of salt because you are not breeding Steve or dealing with the reality of it.

...as far as I am concerned there is a difference between 'theories' and 'talk' and 'speculation' which there is plenty of when it comes to HD and DJD and actually doing something about it.

As a breeder he actually did something to better his dogs and their breed.





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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #61 
Good for him, but it didn't prove your premise!

If his dogs were suffering from a nutritional deficiency, which triggered HD symptomatology, then it was not a genetically related issue in his line.

If his dogs were genetically predisposed to HD, but the diet masked it's overt expression, then he has not "cured the issue" but has prevented it from expressing itself, but the negative genes are still passed on.

In another breed, his efforts might not mean a thing, as other factors overcome his diet "cure"!



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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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toadhall

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Reply with quote  #62 

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If his dogs were suffering from a nutritional deficiency, which triggered HD symptomatology, then it was not a genetically related issue in his line.

 
You can't know that Steve..you are just speculating!
 
The fact is we are all being told (including him) that it is genetic with out any robust scientific evidence and to remove affected dogs from the gene pool.
Over nutrition, not nutritional deficiency, is the issue and it is creating problems for our dogs. Its a multi billion dollar business with a vested interest in funding research that supports itself..and rewarding professionals (i.e Vets) 'to tow the party line'
 
Thats why I applaude this breeders study..against the odds he has proven he can produce structurally sound dogs consistently.
No one would dare fund him for this kind of research!!!!

Quote:

If his dogs were genetically predisposed to HD, but the diet masked it's overt expression, then he has not "cured the issue" but has prevented it from expressing itself, but the negative genes are still passed on.

 
This is also pure speculation on your part Steve.

As I said in a prior post..

"The point is he has been able to eliminate hip and elbow dysplasia for six generations in a line that consistently produced it prior to this simply using a protein step down diet and vit c.
where is the problem here? Why would you remove dogs from breeding when they have not produced the condition for 6 gen, no dogs are in any pain, their quality of life is not affected, no owners are heartbroken? 

So what is the genetic impact Steve?
A breed that dosn't require expensive, high protein, fad ingredient dog food??????"


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #63 

 


Karen,

What I find quite amazing and disturbing, is that you will toss out the entire scientific body of work, that has led to almost every accredited researcher to unequvically state that primary HD is genetically based and substitute that 70 year old research for a single breeder that "claims" to have eliminated HD from his dogs without ANY science behind his findings!!!

Incredible!

Quote:
Over nutrition, not nutritional deficiency, is the issue and it is creating problems for our dogs.


Karen, is that why vitamin C was recommended for HD?

Malnutrition is a double edged sword and you can't take one side and ignore the other!

Hypervitaminosis can be just as debilitating as hypovitaminosis!

Secondary HD can have nutritional and environmental factors that increase the incidence of HD. Those factors can be controlled if addressed early on. Even slippery floors can increase the incidence of HD.

Selective breeding, under controlled conditions (not typical breeder conditions), reduce the incidence of primary HD, even when food given these dogs are not altered in any way.

It's clear from those studies, that HD is genetically based, even though it appears that one specific gene is not responsible for the condition.


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #64 
http://www.thelabradorclub.com/uploads/file/hip_dysplasia.pdf

Required reading!

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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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toadhall

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Reply with quote  #65 
Steve I have an open mind..I am not tossing out anything ...or disregarding the very good results he got!
Its just not a black and white issue as many have tried to make out.


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #66 
The "issue" is black & white, as there are environmental, nutritional AND genetic modes of obtaining HD.

In many instances, several of the named above are operating simultaneously.
This makes it difficult for researchers to isolate, but it doesn't make it a non black & white issue.

The results of research lead to avenues that are fairly certain, if not conclusive and to determine that all the years of research has led to a stalemate, because a specific gene has not been discovered as causative is naive.

Primary HD is of genetic origin and gets passed on from generation to generation, whether expressed, or latent, depending on accompanying alleles to modify expression or not. That's why it's so difficult to nail down. But when dogs that overtly show HD are not bred, we see the incidence of HD drop off, indicating a reduction of HD genes, through selective breeding away from affected progenitors.

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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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toadhall

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Reply with quote  #67 

an extract from an article on why humans should take vit C !

 

Whom to Believe?

So whom should you believe when it comes to taking, or not taking, vitamin C?

Pauling? Reuben? Pearson? The New England Journal of Medicine?

No. A friend. Man's best friend. The dog. But why trust a dog over doctors and researchers?

Because dogs don't lie. They can't be taught to disguise a limp or understand the concept of the placebo effect. Dogs don't have an agenda. They don't experiment with vitamin C in the hope of proving or disproving its efficacy. And because both recent anecdotal and double-blind research has shown that vitamin C supplementation has allowed lame hunting dogs to run and hunt again.

How Vitamin C Kept Doggies from Death Row

Canine hip dysplasia occurs when a dog's femur no longer rests in the ball-and-socket joint of the hip. This genetic and degenerative disease common to many breeds of hunting dogs was traditionally treated in one of two ways: expensive hip replacement surgery or pet euthanasia. Since the malady was inherited more often than not, breeding a dog with CHD was out of the question. Until Wendell Bellfield, a veterinarian in San Jose, California, experimented with vitamin C supplementation.

According to Larry Mueller, the Hunting Dogs Editor of Outdoor Life, Bellfield gave vitamin C throughout pregnancy and lactation to bitches who had CHD, had mates with CHD, and who had previously whelped pups with the disease. None of the pups in the eight litters developed the disease.

After this experiment, numerous vets and breeders began giving vitamin C to dogs who already had CHD. The success rate - and the ease in which the disease was rendered powerless - astounded them while the precise way in which the vitamin C worked baffled them. Even though the cured dogs ran pain free, X-rays still revealed hip dysplasia and the severe arthritis that it produced.

Despite the evidence, the medical community was not impressed until a double-blind crossover study performed by veterinarian L. Phillips Brown proved what many dog lovers already knew: crush a 1000 mg tablet of vitamin C in with Lucky's lunch and he loses his limp. Brown's research also revealed an additional fact: a specific type of vitamin C, Ester-C, was more effective than traditional ascorbic acid.


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toadhall

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Reply with quote  #68 
another excerpt with a link to the full article

http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html

Early Spay-Neuter Considerations
for the Canine Athlete
One Veterinarian's Opinion
© 2005 Chris Zink DVM, PhD, DACVP

Those of us with responsibility for the health of canine athletes need to continually read and evaluate new scientific studies to ensure that we are taking the most appropriate care of our performance dogs. This article provides evidence through a number of recent studies to suggest that veterinarians and owners working with canine athletes should revisit the standard protocol in which all dogs that are not intended for breeding are spayed and neutered at or before 6 months of age.

Orthopedic Considerations
A study by Salmeri et al in 1991 found that bitches spayed at 7 weeks grew significantly taller than those spayed at 7 months, who were taller than those not spayed (or presumably spayed after the growth plates had closed).(1) A study of 1444 Golden Retrievers performed in 1998 and 1999 also found bitches and dogs spayed and neutered at less than a year of age were significantly taller than those spayed or neutered at more than a year of age.(2) The sex hormones, by communicating with a number of other growth-related hormones, promote the closure of the growth plates at puberty (3), so the bones of dogs or bitches neutered or spayed before puberty continue to grow. Dogs that have been spayed or neutered well before puberty can frequently be identified by their longer limbs, lighter bone structure, narrow chests and narrow skulls. This abnormal growth frequently results in significant alterations in body proportions and particularly the lengths (and therefore weights) of certain bones relative to others. For example, if the femur has achieved its genetically determined normal length at 8 months when a dog gets spayed or neutered, but the tibia, which normally stops growing at 12 to 14 months of age continues to grow, then an abnormal angle may develop at the stifle. In addition, with the extra growth, the lower leg below the stifle likely becomes heavier (because it is longer), and may cause increased stresses on the cranial cruciate ligament. In addition, sex hormones are critical for achieving peak bone density.(4) These structural and physiological alterations may be the reason why at least one recent study showed that spayed and neutered dogs had a higher incidence of CCL rupture.(5) Another recent study showed that dogs spayed or neutered before 5 1/2 months had a significantly higher incidence of hip dysplasia than those spayed or neutered after 5 1/2 months of age, although it should be noted that in this study there were no standard criteria for the diagnosis of hip dysplasia.(6) Nonetheless, breeders of purebred dogs should be cognizant of these studies and should consider whether or not pups they bred were spayed or neutered when considering breeding decisions.


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toadhall

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Reply with quote  #69 

Protein levels and Growth. 

The case for lowering protein levels from 14 weeks to 10 months old to under 20% protein.

The idea of phasic diets originated in . . . poultry !!!  (Ah, Michelle the Animal Science nutritionist that she is  - says Rick !!!)
In order to grow bigger 'broiler' chickens faster, breeding programs sought to have faster maturing birds with a higher proportion of breast meat . . . and using a strict breeding protocol it was possible to have a marketable bird in a mere  6 weeks from hatching.  The problem was that the muscle and weight gain outstripped the ability of the legs and pelvis to support them, and they got severe "spraddle" and inability to stand, eat and drink.  Chickens being cannibals picked on the spraddled birds !  Heart disease and heart failure was rampant in the juvenile birds since their rapidly growing muscle and body mass demanded a higher cardiac output!

The first correction was to only breed these hybrid birds as F1 crosses !  Neither parent breed had the rapid weight, spraddle (leg) problems or heart failure !  And the F1 "chicks" went to slaughter before they got big enough to have the leg or heart problems as adults !  So every generation of such high growth rate hybrid chicks is a new F1 generation !!!

Secondly, it was reasoned that a "phasic diet" with initial high protein (starter ration), then reduced protein (maintenance) to slow muscle mass and growth (allowing the legs and hips to 'catch up in strength and maturity !) followed finally by a high protein food (finishing ration) fuelling the rapid muscle and high quality meat growth.  The genes determined the ultimate weight and height, but the nutrition controlled the rate of 'getting there' !!!

It worked !  Reduced risk of spraddle and other leg problems in juveniles.  More 'finished' birds for every chick started !  And even the heart was allowed to grow to maturity before the muscle growth demands.  Fewer heart failure losses condemned by Food Inspection at slaughter for ascites.

So while Goldens are "bird" dogs . . . this attempted manipulation of osteochondral growth in Golden retriever puppies (by dietary means) to reduce hip dysplasia . . . really DID originate with "the birds" !!

 

See "Special Symposium, Osteochondrosis: How to identify and treat its manifestations in dogs" by Steven M. Fox, MS, DVM and Alexander M. Walker, BVSc, MACVSc, in Veterinary Medicine (a peer-reviewed journal), Feb. 1993, pp 116-153. On page 121 it says,

 

"the etiology of OCD is multifactorial. The most consistent finding in experimental and clinical studies incriminates rapid growth and weight gain. Most dogs affected with [OCD] are of medium to large size. And male dogs, which generally grow faster than female dogs, are affected twice as often as females. The relationship between nutrition, hormonal disturbances, and genetic factors for rapid growth and disturbances of endochondral osteogenesis suggests a metabolic origin...Dietary factors incriminated in OCD are high-energy, high-protein diets, excessive intake of calcium and phosphorus, and imbalances of calcium, phosphorus, and vitamin D. Excessive intake of nutrients accelerates growth and induces hormonal disturbances. In an experimental study in Great Dane puppies, free-choice feeding resulted in increased growth and multiple skeletal abnormalities. The high-protein, high-carbohydrate diet accelerated both growth and weight gain, and excessive calcium intake caused a persistently high level of calcitonin...Regardless of the specific nutrients involved, there is general agreement that the incidence and severity of OCD can be substantially reduced by normalizing the diet and slowing the rate of growth and weight gain." (Several studies were cited)

 

And from "Effects of limited food consumption on the incidence of hip dysplasia in growing dogs", by RD Kealy et al., in JAVMA, Vol. 201, No. 6, Sept. 15, 1992 (pp 857-863), "The first report of a correlation of early rapid growth and weight gain to severity of CHD was published in 1964...In a study of Gread Danes, it was shown that excessive intake of food accelerated growth thereby contributing to the development of hip dysplasia. In a study of 31 dogs...with a high parental frequency of hip dysplasia, it was found that CHD was more frequent, developed earlier, and became more severe in dogs with rapid weight gain caused by increased caloric intake, compared with dogs with low weight gain because of restricted feeding." And in the discussion of this study, "On the basis of our findings in the long-term study reported here, limited food intake has a beneficial effect on development of the hip joints in growing and adolescent dogs. Labrador Retrievers fed 25% less food than those fed ad libitum had less hip joint laxity when they were 30 weeks old than their ad-libitum-fed counterparts. Furthermore, by maintaining the dogs on the same feeding regimen until they were 2 years old, this beneficial effect was still present at that age, as demonstrated by the significantly lower frequency of hip dysplasia in the limit-fed dogs. Our findings confirm what has been suggested in previous studies that used fewer dogs, but that included Labrador Retrievers, Golden Retrievers, and German Shepherd Dogs."

Quite frankly, I'm puzzled by the fact that vets and PhD's keep asking me for proof that should be readily available to them. I had to e-mail this same info to the vet over on the PetCare Nutrition board here on AOL. My reading (and as a lay person, it's not as easy for me to get my hands on this stuff as it should be for a vet ) plus the advice of my veterinarian and respected breeders who have few orthopedic problems in their lines, has convinced me that puppy foods are not a good idea for large and giant breeds. So, I stand by my statement.

PS-JAVMA is the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Assoc.


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #70 

What statement?


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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toadhall

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The relationship between nutrition, hormonal disturbances, and genetic factors for rapid growth and disturbances of endochondral osteogenesis suggests a metabolic origin...Dietary factors incriminated in OCD are high-energy, high-protein diets, excessive intake of calcium and phosphorus, and imbalances of calcium, phosphorus, and vitamin D. Excessive intake of nutrients accelerates growth and induces hormonal disturbances.


My thoughts are that a good start to reducing HD would be to pro-actively eliminate some of the 'metabolic' factors.

Normalising the diet is not only better for HD & ED but also for the heart and hormone health.

That could be as simple as feeding your puppies 20% protein through fast growth periods and giving ester vit c....so as a breeder why wouldn't you do this????? If you still get high levels of dysplasia after this then of course eliminate the dogs concerned from breeding programmes.
The jury is out on cystinuria for me still..but similarly, like the initial hysteria on hip and elbow dysplasia...more studies need to be done. There are indications that there are metabolic dietry factors involved there as well.


 

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steveoifer

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There are indications that there are metabolic dietry factors involved there as well.



If you've read what I've posted, I have stated this a number of times.

Diet, environment, genetic. Those are three contributing factors to HD, but genetic factors cannot be eliminated by changing diet, or environment.


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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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toadhall

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Reply with quote  #73 

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Those are three contributing factors to HD, but genetic factors cannot be eliminated by changing diet, or environment



who knows Steve, they can't find a gene..so you really can't test that hypothesis..
....what you can test is if you can produce 6 or 8 generations of HD free, structurally sound dogs on a protein step down diet and vit c ...
if you can... then its really a non issue in my opinion.



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steveoifer

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You can't scientifically test those dogs in your example, because there are no valid parameters pre and post in that breeding method.

It's like rain dancing! When you finally get rain, you believe your dancing worked!

Genetic HD is not tentative, or assumed and therefore it is not hypothetical.

We know that HD drops, in controlled studies, through selective breedings to HD free individuals. This proves a genetic component is present, even though it has not been identified.

__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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toadhall

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Reply with quote  #75 
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You can't scientifically test those dogs in your example, because there are no valid parameters pre and post in that breeding method.

It's like rain dancing! When you finally get rain, you believe your dancing worked!

 
Steve I am not a scientist.. but I have hip & elbow scored my mastiffs and will continue to do so.
The first litter I bred, 3 of the 4 pups have been scored and have fabulous hips and elbows. Lola had a total of 2 hips, Teddy a total of 3 hips and Shayla a total of 4 hips and all had 00 elbows. In USA terms thats grade 'excellent'
I put them on 20% protein from 8 weeks of age through to 14 mths and gave them Ester C some of the time. I didn't restrict their exercise because I personally believe they need equally good muscle tone to support their bone structure. Now I don't know scientifically if this has made a difference..except all this litter have better scores than either of their parents. Call it raindancing if you like..but all breeding must be raindancing then.

 
Quote:
We know that HD drops, in controlled studies, through selective breedings to HD free individuals. This proves a genetic component is present, even though it has not been identified

 
Maybe..were the metabolic factors controlled? If they were fed the same thing that caused it before and then after would give you the same results.

The relationship between nutrition, hormonal disturbances, and genetic factors for rapid growth and disturbances of endochondral osteogenesis suggests a metabolic origin...Dietary factors incriminated in OCD are high-energy, high-protein diets, excessive intake of calcium and phosphorus, and imbalances of calcium, phosphorus, and vitamin D. Excessive intake of nutrients accelerates growth and induces hormonal disturbances.


The genetic factor for rapid growth is what is being implicated. 
Based on the information we have I don't think there will ever be a DNA test for HD.
Mastiffs are notorious for fast growth, especially the large males. Should we eliminate all fast growers from the gene pool then?
Or just control fast growth..which is something we can do and has the same results as culling the gene pool?


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Karen Dyer
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