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clydeman

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Reply with quote  #1 

OK, I have been thinking of ways to clear this "American Mastiff" thing up.  If anyone else has any ideas please post them.

 

I know the American mastiff breeders have been trying to capitalize on the mastiffs reputation and, in some cases, flat out lie about their cross breeding's.

 

If you do a internet search on American mastiffs you will see all kinds of claims about how much better the AM is over our Mastiffs.  Example:  They don't drool, they are healthier, better temperament, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah  In reality there is no proof to back up their claims and to the contrary I have heard AM owners state their dogs drool, have temperament and health problems.

 

The public goes looking for a mastiff and they see the lies, half truths and spins many of the AM breeders have stated in their web pages to lure away the potential Mastiff customer to their mastiff-Anatolian Shepard cross.

 

A potential idea to help alleviate the problems

 

When someone does a search about AM they also find a page stating the actual FACTS and history about the AM and how it compares to the Mastiff.  The page would rebuttal their claims and point to the MCOA and/or other places for a better understanding of the issue. 

 

I am not a Internet buff nor am I aware of the legal issues with such a task, however, shouldn't the mastiff community protect the breed and the public from this kind of blatant false advertising?  As I understand it they are selling these AM's for thousands of dollars.

 

I am sure many of these AM dogs are great as they are derived from our breed but... 

 

If the mastiff community isn't going to protect the breed and it's name "Mastiff" then who will.  Our breed is the real American Mastiffs and they have NO RIGHTS TO IT!!!

 

If they are not trying to lure away the potential mastiff purchasers then why didn't they call it the Anatolian Mastiff???
 
Lets start calling them the Anatoli Mastiffs cross (AMC) or someting like that and we keep our name the way it is.

 


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Dwight
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #2 
Interesting Dwight.  I thought about this very topic when the AM thread became large and intense on this board, but it was suggested to me that it would not bode well and cause more riff.  In essence the AM folks are advertising their AM's and in doing that pointing out their opinions of the differences between EMs and AMs.  They have never put up a direct site to redirect or in essence "degrade" the EM.  So, IMPO we really don't have the right to put up a site just for that purpose.  We need to continue to put links on our websites that pull folks in.  I know several breeders who because they talk about the AM on their EM websites get hits from folks looking for AMs are able to educate them on the differences from an EM standpoint. 

IMPO - we just need to continue in that direction - eventually folks doing searches for AMs will hit a ton of EM websites because their are so many more out there compared to the AM sites and will become informed that way.


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Monica
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Kat

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Reply with quote  #3 
As someone with feet in both camps, I agree with Monica's post. Also in my opinion, for an EM person to create a website stating "facts" about the AM, I think those so called "facts" would be colored more with personal opinion then actual facts. To be honest, without documented "proof" it would just seem like a personal attack, he said/she said kind of situation.


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clydeman

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Reply with quote  #4 
It's in no wise meant to degrade the AM but rather to clarify the false advertisments and lies.  The AM is probably a nice dog but the they are advertising they are better then the Mastiffs.  That is not true. 

When someone reads the AM breeder web pages the hear a lot of false advertisements.  We state the facts strictly to show they are not better but meerly a cross breed between a mastiff and an Anatoli.

Did I state something to imply  we need to degrade?

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Dwight
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tatetori2

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Reply with quote  #5 

Dwight they should be called Anatolian /Mastiff mixes. I definitely agree with that.


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Monica

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Reply with quote  #6 
Dwight, believe me I love your idea and I wish it could be done without stepping on toes or being politically incorrect, but it can't.  Maybe degrade wasn't the right word.  But if an EM person creates a sight that endeavors to tell the public that the AM sites are falsely advertising  that won't be taken well by that community and will cause uproar.  The EM community needs to do all they can on their websites to get his which alert the public searching for AMs on the differences between EMs and AMs - that's the best we can do IMPO without being unethical and immoral. 

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Monica
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mariaruoto

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Reply with quote  #7 
The wonderful (LAUGH) CKC (Continental) has a listing for an anatolian mastiff - in the "group" mastiff - their "groups" make no sense - look at the dogs they have placed in it...the American Staffordshire Terrier, the american bulldog, etc. The club is quite laughable their "standards" don't say much, they have no breed histories...nor do they even have pictures of some of these so called breeds!


Anatolian Mastiff (CKC) "standard"
 
Height: (Approx.) 27-32 In.
Group: Mastiff
Weight: (Approx.) 175-200 Lbs.
Coat: Dense, Short And Thick
Color: Fawn, Varying From Very Light To Nearly Apricot And Brindle, Both With Black Mask.
  

Appearance: Head: Wide, heavy and rectangular in shape. Eyes: Small, dark hazel in color. Ears: Rounded and set high on head. Muzzle: Wide and well tapered. Nose: Black and self-colored according to coat. Bite: Scissor or level. Neck: Powerful, muscular, medium length and slightly arched. Chest: Deep, broad and well-rounded, descending to the level of elbows. Ribs are well-sprung and extend well back. Body: Back is level, muscular and powerful, with well muscled and slightly arched loins. Legs: Forelegs are strong, straight and set well apart. Hind legs are wide and parallel. Feet: Round and compact, with arched toes and black nails. Tail: Long, reaching the hocks. Movement: Strong and driving, yet very agile. Temperament: Protective and aloof with strangers.
 

Many mastiff breeders have pages on their site explaining that an american "mastiff" is not a mastiff and why this am was an irresponsible mixture.
 
The thing I find most difficult to understand is, like you said, how can they make these claims of dry mouths and better health - when they have no proof of it - when they do not even know who the foundation stock was. They want everyone to believe that somehow they were able to pick out every positive gene from these two breeds and put them together - only mixing the good and completely eliminating the bad - whether it be the anatolian's sharp termperament or the mastiff's drool.



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Monica

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Reply with quote  #8 
And yes, Bes and Dwight - THEIR NAME SHOULD BE CHANGED!!!  That should be the focus and where some good could really be done.   If they think their breed is so wonderful then why do they have to sell it with an already established Mastiff name in it?  Pisses me off.

I help with our local foster and got a call the other day to help with a "we are calling it a bull dog/mastiff mix."  I asked the size - sounded like a bulldog to me, but hey let's throw in the Mastiff name and see how many lookers we get.... That pissed me off too, but I am hopefully helping inform them.  To me, they put that Mastiff name on those dogs in hopes they get more folks looking and the AM-MA folks - they are doing the same thing with the name... well, this is repetitive for sure.  I guess I'll sign off - we've heard this all before on another very long thread.


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Monica
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Dunkirkmastiffs

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Reply with quote  #9 
I added a page to my website since I get an awful lot of questions about the American mastiff when we do breed education tables.   In my opinion this cross is reckless and irresponsible. I say that when people ask me about it and I say it on my site.
http://www.dunkirkmastiffs.com/id23.html



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clydeman

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Reply with quote  #10 
We didn't fire the first shots they did.  I just gave an idea to recommend a course of action and is just an idea.  I we(the mastiff community) keep letting this nonsense proceed unchecked then WE deserve the consequences.  What's going to stop someone from breeding a mastiff with a Rot or some other breed and making some more blatant statements on how their new cross breed is 1000% better, etc etc.  This keeps continuing and...

KAT - There is nothing wrong with the AMC cross and I understand you point.  This isn't directed at the dog but rather the lies.

Anyone else have a better idea?

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Dwight
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clydeman

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Reply with quote  #11 
Maria quote "The thing I find most difficult to understand is, like you said, how can they make these claims of dry mouths and better health - when they have no proof of it - when they do not even know who the foundation stock was. They want everyone to believe that someone they were able to pick out every positive gene from these two breeds and put them together - only mixing the good and completely eliminating the bad - whether it be the anatolian's sharp termperament or the mastiff's drool."

**********

Now that's is what I am talking about.  They intentionally go after the pure beed they bred from stating the "New and Improved" cross is better.  This is what most of the designer breeders are doing and the Pure Breed community is what targeted.


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Dwight
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OsoBodacious

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Reply with quote  #12 
Pat,
For those of us who don't have a page on our website (YET!) may we borrow your information to use on our own site.

I agree that every Mastiff website should have an disclaimer/education page about the Mastiff / American Mastiff differences, and you have summed it up as well as any I've read.

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Terri Perkins
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Kat

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Reply with quote  #13 

If you talk to the AM owners, we aren't saying our dogs are better then the EM. But we ARE hoping with their smaller stature and less weight on their hips and joints, the cases of documented medical problems in our dogs is low to almost non-existant. But IMO its a catch 22 in the end. You may create less health problems, but I think you create a less guaranteed temperment. While my dog is not aggressive, I can see the differences in his temperment as compared to my EM pup.


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clydeman

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Reply with quote  #14 
KAT that would depend, to a great extent, on what was the original stock used to make this cross.  If it was a high quality stock used (most with this high quality stock wouldn't make a cross out of them but would take pride in their breed lines knowing they already have a good product) then yes you may have a point but it the original stock had a displastic problem or was prone to it...

KAT do you believe these designer breeders are really looking out after the public or their pocket book?  Did they show you the results of testing done on the parents?  Did they offer you a guarantee?   Or did you get a large sales pitch on how much better they are? 

I believe that you have a wonderful dog KAT because they have a lot of mastiff blood in them.  To say you don't have a nice dog is to bash our own breed.  The problem isn't with your dog but the spin on truth these breeders are using to sell you (the public) these dogs.  This and the claims they use is what hurts our Breed.  Many in the public are paying thousands of dollars per dog based on these claims.

The intent of this thread is to figure out a way from the mastiff community to aleviate the problem.  Do you have any ideas KAT?

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Dwight
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Dunkirkmastiffs

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Reply with quote  #15 
Kat the problem with that argument is that there are plenty of other breeds that could have achieved the same goals without using one with such a sharp temperament that is really not for the novice dog owner.  It is what it is--they didn't consider those traits they used the two dogs they had on hand.

As for using the info on my page PLEASE DO!


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OsoBodacious

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Reply with quote  #16 
Thanks Pat.  I need to add a page to my website and that will help get it done quicker.

For the AM People:

I just read on one AM site that the American Mastiff is 7/8 Mastiff, and 1/8 Anatolian, yet all AM's being bred now are pure "AM" with no additional Anatolian outcrossing.  How many generations does it take to get a 1:7 ratio?  And how many more to "stabilize" the gene pool?

Is anybody who has worked on the creation of this "breed" a geneticist, or have any training at all in genetics?  How did you isolate the genes for drooling, hip dysplasia, heart disease and longevity in both the Mastiff and the Anatolian Sheperd in order to create less drooling, fewer hip problems (we would like to know that one for our own dogs!) decreased rate of heart disease, and increased lifespan.

Exactly "what" is in the gene pool that hasn't yet reared it's ugly head!  Or have you created a genetic cul de sac and will continue to go in circles for years to come?

Who were the frist 2 dogs - the original Mastiff and the original Anatolian Shepherd?  What were their lines like?

Have there been any studies (done by independent researchers) into the claims of no drool? less heart disease? fewer hip problems? and longer life?  Where is the supporting evidence for these claims?

Do you have a control group that you do every test on to verify the veracity of your breed "characteristics".

Until you can answer the questions, prove your protocol, until your claims can be recreated by others, your "experiment" is invalid.  You have not created a new "breed" but merely put 2 dogs together and got mutt.

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Terri Perkins
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mariaruoto

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
the cases of documented medical problems in our dogs is low to almost non-existant


Isn't this because there is no or very little health testing on AM's? If there is no testing - there is no documentation either way. Hence, the statement of better health is unfounded. I went to the FW site and could not find any health testing information whatsoever (not on the Mastiffs or the AM's).

Why doesn't she acknowledge her foundation dogs? Where is the Anatolian she used?


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"I hope that someday they can understand that it's not 'just a dog', but the thing that gives me humanity and keeps me from being 'just a (man or) woman'."
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mariaruoto

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Reply with quote  #18 

GREAT post, Terri!!


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"I hope that someday they can understand that it's not 'just a dog', but the thing that gives me humanity and keeps me from being 'just a (man or) woman'."
~Biby '06

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #19 
I find it quite amazing when I hear that ALL of the good qualities were "left in", but the negatives were removed!

It stinks!

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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
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clydeman

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Reply with quote  #20 
KAT the owners are not the problem.  I actually feel sorry for most of these owners if they were lied to.   We just want you owners and potential owners to know what your getting into and not just what is being claimed by these cross Breeders.  The breeders are the problem.  If after you have the information then you can better make an educated decision.  If you then chose to purchase the AMC then I support your decision.  Deception is what is causing the problems and should be addressed.

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Dwight
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #21 
Dwight wrote:  What's going to stop someone from breeding a mastiff with a Rot or some other breed and making some more blatant statements on how their new cross breed is 1000% better, etc etc.  This keeps continuing and...

IMPO as we have seen time and time again, NOTHING.  What we can do for our breed and the public is educate.  Find as many ways as possible to get the words American Mastiff linked to our page so that when folks search for an American Mastiff they come up with our sites which lead them to a place where they can be educated. 

I'd rather deal with joint issues and drool any day over an unpredictable temperament.  Lets be honest, we have not chosen a Beagle or Chihuahua - we have chosen a MASTIFF and along with that comes drool and at times some not so good joints - a well researched buyer is aware of this when they endeavor to have a MASTIFF - its worth it -- 110% worth it, even the short life span -- because they are that awesome.  For someone to try and capitalize on all that MASTIFFS are and mix in a risky temperament to try and assert that the dog they mixed in  takes away the drool, adds longer life span and less risk of joint problems NO THANK YOU!! I'll keep my MASTIFF just the way he is drool, joint risks, shorter life span honest, predictable, loving and fabulous!

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Monica
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StergoMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #22 
http://www.americanmastiff.org/Luther.htm

(*noted a necropsy was not done. I PAID for a necropsy on a puppy of mine that was placed and died at 7 months of age... I as a breeder needed to know WHY!  cause:bacterial meningitis)



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inohio

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Reply with quote  #23 
Hi, please understand I am not trying to cause trouble here or make accusations, but I was told Flying W's original mastiff stock came from an auction, a large number of mastiffs were sold and Flying W purchased them, does anyone know if there is truth to that? It could just be a rumor and I would never want to spread rumors, but as an owner of an American Mastiff that definitely has temperament issues, I would really like to know how this all came to be.
Also, is it normal to see a long horse barn with stalls full of adult males and females? (that is not rumor, I saw that when I was there)
I was hesitant to even post this, but I would really like to know if there is truth to this.
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inohio

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Reply with quote  #24 

An additional side note, as for the healthier issue? Our AM became seriously and mysteriously ill at 11months of age. She was fed the same as our chihuahua and in the same environment also. She was our baby and with us at all times, highly supervised, we really don't know what happened. She almost died. Her treatment was not cheap, she was sent to OSU and in intensive care for 7 of her 9 days of stay. Her bill came over $5000. It all started with vomiting and diarrhea. They could only make a guess of a toxin or virus. They were puzzled also.

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clydeman

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Reply with quote  #25 
Inohio:  I don't have enough information to say either way about that claim.  All I have heard is rumors to this point.

I would be interesting if someone has something substantial.  Steve?

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Dwight
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