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Kat

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Reply with quote  #26 
I can't answer alot of those questions. I know the dogs werent tested. I believe thats been stated before (in the thread that got ugly). I can respect alot of the valid questions/concerns that some of you have brought up. I also can't speak for all the owners and what their breeder might or might not have told them. I can speak for myself alone and my breeder never once mentioned the word "better" in any of our conversations. I was also told up front what to expect in regards to drool, etc. I was offered a health/temperment guarantee until the time he reached 2 years old.

Inohio: I dont agree with much of what Fredericka does (I think I am a minority in that when it comes to AM owners). I think she started out 20-25 years ago with a simple and pure dream to create a healthier dog. But I also think somewhere along the way, that dream got twisted into what it is today (basically a puppy mill). Spitting out pups without regard to temperment or standard (not that the AM has a REAL standard). If you look at the history of the dogs that have been mentioned to have aggression issues, I think 98% of them came from her. That means there are still many AM breeders who are carefully breeding their dogs and keeping close reign on it. I was on her waiting list in 2006 for a year, but pulled away and started edging toward the EM breeder I had been conversing with for some time. When I picked up my EM Leo from her last Saturday I could feel that I wouldnt be disappointed. All her dogs were friendly and beautiful. Most were kept in the house unless they were in heat and she was trying to keep them from the male. Even her male showered me with kisses. If I had tried that with Thor's dad, I probably would have lost my head.

OsoBodacious: I dont know about the ratios and I dont even know if I am reading Thor's pedigree chart correctly. It looks like he is the 4th generation off these particular lines? The very last column is a mix of 8 "original stock" and 8 noted EM's. I am wondering if I can go back further, but I doubt it would matter since there is no information available on the "original stock". Am I to assume that is the anatolian part?



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OsoBodacious

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Reply with quote  #27 
Kat,
Would you be willing to share Thor's pedigree with us?  I'm curious as to where the Anatolians come in and where pure Mastiff was added to dilute the percentage of Anatolian down to a 1:7 ratio.

If your pedigree goes back to 8 Anatolians (which I assume as you do that would be "original stock") and 8 Mastiffs, depending on the coupling matrix, the ratio would never go below 1:1 (half Anatolian / half Mastiff).  Unless of course, original stock is the first generation 1/2 and 1/2 and they're coupled randomly.

I would find it interesting to study his pedigree.

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #28 
It's a mess!

Simply put!

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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
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Kat

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Reply with quote  #29 
I would have replied sooner, but I fell asleep on the floor sandwiched between Thor and Leo I scanned Thor's pedigree and I've attached it as a JPEG. It is completely unaltered except for I took out the breeders name on the cert.

In the last column there are 2 that I dont know if they are EM's, or already been crossed and thats "Flying W Farms Candy" and "Annie".


P.S. When you look at the attachment, its much easier to read when you enlarge it a bit.


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Reply with quote  #30 

Fredericka, came from money and wanted to make money --she did buy in great quantity Mastiffs at auction and out bid the MCOA and everyone else to get the dogs.  I simply do not care what anyone says --I am not Polite here about this......anyone can get lucky on the dog they get from her if it takes after the Mastiff..........Fredericka is the worse breeder and has done more damage to the Mastiff Bred over anyone else.  She is a mess and it was the Money always the money and a mis-directed quest for fame.

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inohio

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Reply with quote  #31 

I would much rather know the truth, polite or not is not an issue for me, I'd much rather know where I stand...thank you for your honesty.

so when someone buys such a large, large block of mastiffs, breeds them, sells them @ $1500. each, they could make into the hundreds of thousands of $$$ in the course of one year? in the ballpark? The only time I met Fredricka was to hand over the money, our meeting lasted about 15 minutes.

I would like to believe this is all rumors, than to believe someone just wants to churn out money and not care what the temperament people could end up with in their homes, leaving families constantly spending money on  obedience classes and behaviorists or worse.

I had heard about puppy mills, then I learned the Amish can be the worst (I guess this one surprised me the most). There are some ugly, sickening things in this world, it is heart wrenching to see what greed can do.

I will admit, sometimes it may take me a bit to get up to speed, but I feel horrible I have contributed to this deceit. Someone asked me why I didn't just send the pup back. I said I was a little embarrassed, I thought I was doing something wrong raising her and I struggled looking into those eyes that loved me so much, by sending her back, knowing it stated in the contract she could very well be put down. Now, if she were to ever bite, that maybe a different story, but I choose to keep working with her, living the way we do, although it is not easy.

This board has helped me cope tremendously. I truly appreciate all the hard work, dedication, and love the MCOA and EM owners are trying to do by putting information out there.

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Reply with quote  #32 

Quote:

But we ARE hoping with their smaller stature and less weight on their hips and joints,



This is just pure ignorance.....here are the actual facts....
http://www.offa.org/hipstatbreed.html
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Monica

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Reply with quote  #33 
Kimberly  - you are a good soul!

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Reply with quote  #34 

I have had so much joy from tracing my dog's pedigree and have managed to go back to the 30s with part of it with the help of generous folks and to see this so called pedigree sort of makes me sad. Is the "original stock" supposed to be Anatolian? They are an AKC recognized breed so there would be no reason not to know who they are unless they were unregistered dogs.

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Reply with quote  #35 

Quote:

But we ARE hoping with their smaller stature and less weight on their hips and joints,



this is from FW web site....
looks identical to the English mastiff in color, shape, size, etc.
 
this of course is a flat out lie.
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Reply with quote  #36 
this is from FW web site....
looks identical to the English mastiff in color, shape, size, etc.
 
this of course is a flat out lie.

 


Just for sh*ts and giggles....   which is the American Mastiff and which is the English Mastiff?
 
 




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mariaruoto

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Reply with quote  #37 
Michelle,

Since you have and AM and and RESCUE Mastiff, comparing them would not be a true "test"...This is not meant to offend - but - rescues are typically not the best physical representatives of any breed.

Which is the AM and which is the Mastiff?

 



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Reply with quote  #38 

FW started out in mastiffs. She actually had some pretty nice ones. Not sure where the AS came in at but she started mixing the AS and  the mastiff before the auction. Then Walter Nacey was suspended from AKC for record keeping so he auctioned off all his mastiffs. It was my understanding she made a deal with him even before the auction and took all his mastiffs.

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Reply with quote  #39 
Maria....

I obviously don't agree.  Rescues come from all type of situations, whether backyard breeders, reputable breeders, or puppy mills.  In fact, the breeder from my soon-to-be-adopted EM had the #1 female three or so years ago.  If the AKC recognizes the EM in my picture, then she is a representative of the EM breed. 

If I placed the dog you posted next to four or five other breeder's dogs from this site, they would all look different.  Some have huge heads,  some don't.  Some are tall and thin, some are short and stocky.  Some have very little wrinkle, some have a ton.  Some have very droopy jowls, some don't at all. Some have long noses, some short.  The EMs DON'T all look alike. 

I just posted the pictures to show that AMs and some lines of the EMs DO look very much alike.  ...so what Angie quoted to be a "flat out lie," is NOT a lie.  ...and, for the size.. the AMs are NOT smaller and lighter in weight.  I have no idea how that one even started. 


 

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mariaruoto

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Reply with quote  #40 
Quote:
Maria....

I obviously don't agree.  Rescues come from all type of situations, whether backyard breeders, reputable breeders, or puppy mills.  In fact, the breeder from my soon-to-be-adopted EM had the #1 female three or so years ago.  If the AKC recognizes the EM in my picture, then she is a representative of the EM breed. 

If I placed the dog you posted next to four or five other breeder's dogs from this site, they would all look different.  Some have huge heads,  some don't.  Some are tall and thin, some are short and stocky.  Some have very little wrinkle, some have a ton.  Some have very droopy jowls, some don't at all. Some have long noses, some short.  The EMs DON'T all look alike. 

I just posted the pictures to show that AMs and some lines of the EMs DO look very much alike.  ...so what Angie quoted to be a "flat out lie," is NOT a lie.  ...and, for the size.. the AMs are NOT smaller and lighter in weight.  I have no idea how that one even started. 


Michelle,

I said typically. There is always a chance of finding a rescue that is a good physical representation of the breed - but that is not the norm. And, yes, different lines have varying appearances - for example the bitch I posted has a sooty coat.

However, I am talking about general good physical representation of the breed - per the Mastiff breed standard. In order for a dog/bitch to be a good physical representation of the breed certain things have to be there.

You should be able to see the difference in depth of body, breadth of chest, pigment, bone and head.

Now, take for example my boy Winston. He is a purebred Mastiff. However, he is a poor physical representative of the breed. He has none of the qualities I mentioned above, which are paramount to our breed. If a dog lacks any of these qualities - breeder's work towards them or do not breed them.

So, was Fredricka's goal to create a dog that looks like a poorly bred Mastiff that has a dry mouth (or does it?)?


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Reply with quote  #41 

as someone who takes dogs seriously it's hard to take that "test" seriously...I have a few tests of my own for anyone up for it.

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Reply with quote  #42 
here are two akc breeds - which one is a pharaoh hound and which a ibizan hound?
 
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Reply with quote  #43 
I lived in Turkey, the Anatolian was feared.  If you had a flat tire in the country side, someone needed to watch for the dog while the other changed the tire--this was not a good mix. 

Now with any designer dog, I hate the deed not the dog.  I know not every pit bull is aggressive or will attack............but I also know the majority will.  With some not all of the AM looking so much like a Mastiff.........the true Mastiff Community will get blamed for their problems. 

I do not understand why you want to defend them or Fredericka on a Mastiff board.  Rescue is in terrible shape picking them up as it is.  There is such bad press on her in that area......check with the locals.  Believe me on this one where there is smoke there is a raging fire right under it. 
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StergoMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #44 
Flying W farms Candy is not in my pedigree program.. nor is "Annie"
 
Hercules the Gentle Giant is in my pedigree program (pedigree below)
 
Brite Star is a kennel name for EM, but could not find that Brite Star dog in my pedigree program.  (my program is older so some dogs I have to manually enter, but just find this one odd since it says original stock behind the name)
 
Bournewood Kenworthy is in my program ( I am missing the whole dam's side of the pedigree though -see below)
Jericho Ironwar Jake is in my program (see below)
 

                                        CERTIFIED PEDIGREE
Registered Name: Hercules The Gentle Giant    
Reg. #: WG306096       Sex: Male   Date Whelped: 1/16/1989   Color: fawn
Notes: STUD7/96
             -Eng.Ch. Weatherhill Thor
       -Ch. Nelson of Hollesley
       |        -Leonora of Hollesley
        -Greco's Daniel
        |     |        -Ch. Nelson of Hollesley
        |     -Greco's Dominic
        |           -Greco's Star
  -Ch. Greco's Hollesley Sam
  | OFA fair MF-785F71M|          -Eng.Ch. Weatherhill Thor
  |        |     -Ch. Nelson of Hollesley
  |        |     |        -Leonora of Hollesley
  |        -Princess Dominic
  |       |        -Bruno the Great
  |       -Greco's Star
  |             -Vanilla The Great
-Greco's Duke Of Windridge
| |             -Eng.Ch. Weatherhill Thor
| |       -Ch. Nelson of Hollesley
| |       |        -Leonora of Hollesley
| |        -Greco's Daniel
| |        |     |        -Ch. Nelson of Hollesley
| |        |     -Greco's Dominic
| |        |           -Greco's Star
| -Greco's Hollesley Maid
|        |           -Eng.Ch. Weatherhill Thor
|        |     -Ch. Nelson of Hollesley
|        |     |        -Leonora of Hollesley
|        -Princess Dominic
|       |        -Bruno the Great
|       -Greco's Star
|             -Vanilla The Great
-
|             -Eng.Ch. Hollesley Macushla's Dagda
|       -Eng.Ch. Copenore Rab
|       |        -Eng.Ch. Copenore Mary Ellen
|        -Eng.Ch. Hollesley Medicine Man
|        |     |        -Eng.Ch. The Devil from Wayside
|        |     -Eng.Ch. Devil Dancer of Hollesley
|        |           -Eng.Ch. Hollesley Macushla's Sheba
| -Ch. Falmorehall Fortescue
| |        |           -Eng.Ch. Overnoons Mr. Micawber of Buck
| |        |     -Eng,Irish Ch. Langton Of Fallmore
| |        |     |        -Eng.Ch. Farnaby Rainy Patch
| |        -Irish.Ch. Falmorehall Call Me Madam
| |       |        -Eng.Ch. Hollesley Medicine Man
| |       -Bellabees Mynydd Perfydd
| |             -Celerity Christabelle
-Greco's Duchess Of Windridge
  |             -Eng.Ch. Overnoons Mr. Micawber of Buck
  |       -Ch. Meps Tristan
  |       |        -Eng.Ch. Meps Portia
  |        -Greco's Tristan Son
  |        |     |        -Am.Can.Ch. Tiberias of Kisumu
  |        |     -Brookmoor's Sadie Antonette
  |        |           -Brookmoor's Star Ginger
  -Greco's Tristan Megeen
        |           -Eng.Ch. Weatherhill Thor
        |     -Ch. Nelson of Hollesley
        |     |        -Leonora of Hollesley
        -Princess Dominic
       |        -Bruno the Great
       -Greco's Star
             -Vanilla The Great

Registered Name: Bournewood Kenworthy         
Reg. #: WP341494/01    Sex: Male   Date Whelped: 2/17/1990   Color: fawn
Notes: STUDS 12/93, imported from UK
             -Eng.Ch. Hollesley Macushla's Dagda
       -Eng.Ch. Copenore Rab
       |        -Eng.Ch. Copenore Mary Ellen
        -Eng.Ch. Hollesley Medicine Man
        |     |        -Eng.Ch. The Devil from Wayside
        |     -Eng.Ch. Devil Dancer of Hollesley
        |           -Eng.Ch. Hollesley Macushla's Sheba
  -Eng.Ch. Glynpedr Dom Perignon
  | OFA good       |           -Eng.Ch. Forefoot Prince Of Darkness
  |        |     -Nandina Bilbo Baggins
  |        |     |        -Elsa Softee Of Kenstaff
  |        -Glynpedr Bollinger
  |       |        -Eng.Ch. Overnoons Mr. Micawber of Buck
  |       -Eng.Ch. Forefoot Little Emily Of Bredw
  |             -Nina Of Remargae From Forefoot
-Falmorehall Hudson Of Bournewd
| |             -Eng.Ch. Threebees Friar of Copenore
| |       -Eng.Ch. Overnoons Mr. Micawber of Buck
| |       |        -Buckhall Hannah Of Kisumu
| |        -Eng,Irish Ch. Langton Of Fallmore
| |        |     |        -Eng.Ch. President of Shute
| |        |     -Eng.Ch. Farnaby Rainy Patch
| |        |           -Eng.Ch. Artifax Arabella of Farnaby
| -Irish.Ch. Falmorehall Call Me Madam
|        |           -Eng.Ch. Copenore Rab
|        |     -Eng.Ch. Hollesley Medicine Man
|        |     |        -Eng.Ch. Devil Dancer of Hollesley
|        -Bellabees Mynydd Perfydd
|       |        -Canonbury Alkabar of Celerity
|       -Celerity Christabelle
|             -Buckhall Clemantine OfCelerity
-
-Bournewood Scarcen Holly


              CERTIFIED PEDIGREE
Registered Name: Jericho Ironwar Jake         
Reg. #: WP509419/03    Sex: Male   Date Whelped: 10/17/1993   Color: fawn
Notes: STUD8/96
             -Ch. Deer Run Wycliff
       -Ch. Deer Run Ivan
       |        -Tasha Farley's First Lady
        -Ch. Deer Run Ezekiel
        | OFA MF426   |        -Ch. Grand Duke O'Fern
        |     -Le Mar's Sally
        |           -Le Mar's Little Gem
  -Ch. Lionsire Ironhill Warleggen
  |        |           -Ch. Deer Run Jericho City
  |        |     -Ch. Deer Run Wycliff
  |        |     |        -Deer Run Stella
  |        -Ch. Farleys Eledwhen Steelsheen
  |       |        -Walnut Creek's Grand Duke
  |       -Tasha Farley's First Lady
  |             -Lady Jennifer of E Ranch
-Ch. Iron Hills War Medallion
| |OFA good MF1974G92M OFEL          -Ch. Deer Run Noah Massalane
| |       -Ch. Deer Run Jericho City
| |       | OFA MF139       -Ch. Deer Run Begoine
| |        -Monty Son of Jericho
| |        |     |        -Breck Farm Felix
| |        |     -Collings Farm Mandy
| |        |           -Headacres Farm Jezzi
| -Ch. Monty's Dixie Derby ,CD,TT,TDI
|   OFA good MF551G25F|           -Ch. Deer Run Jericho City
|        |     -Ch. Deer Run Wycliff
|        |     |        -Deer Run Stella
|        -Deer Run Bourbon Derby
|       |        -Ch. Deer Run Noah Massalane
|       -Deer Run Gayly
|             -Deer Run Gretel
-
|             -Ch. Deer Run Wycliff
|       -Ch. Deer Run Ivan
|       |        -Tasha Farley's First Lady
|        -Ch. Deer Run Ezekiel
|        | OFA MF426   |        -Ch. Grand Duke O'Fern
|        |     -Le Mar's Sally
|        |           -Le Mar's Little Gem
| -Ch. Hedgestone Big Man
| | OFA good MF911G30M|           -Ch. Deer Run Ivan
| |        |     -Ch. Deer Run Police
| |        |     |        -Deer Run Bahama Mama
| |        -Hedgestone Roxanne
| |       |        -Ch. Mac Tavish Dundee
| |       -Deer Run Tulla Le Mar
| |             -Ch. Le Mar's BB
-Pax River Charisma
  |             -Ch. Deer Run Zachary
  |       -Deer Run Jason
  |       |        -Ch. Deer Run Fanny Mae
  |        -Ch. Deer Run River Bull
  |        |     |        -Ch. Deer Run Wycliff
  |        |     -Deer Run Ragtime
  |        |           -Deer Run Tulla Le Mar
  -Pax River Charter
        |           -Ch. Deer Run Wellington
        |     -Ch. Deer Run Lancaster
        |     |        -Deer Run Stella
        -Night Stalker Tracy
       |        -Ch. Griffith's T. Geronimo
       -Night Stalker Lisa
         OFA MF-219       -Misty Blue


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Reply with quote  #45 

is this a pug or a brussel griffon?
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Reply with quote  #46 

is this an affenpinscher or brussels griffon?
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Reply with quote  #47 
Black Russian Terrier puppies for sale, Black Russian Terrier breed info
what breed of dog is this guy?
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Reply with quote  #48 
is this an English Springer Spaniel or a Welsh Springer Spaniel?
 English Springer Spaniel
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Reply with quote  #49 
Is this a Chicken, Cock or just plain Fowl?


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Nicci

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Reply with quote  #50 

BBQ Chicken.....to go!


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