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Reply with quote  #51 

what's this guy?
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mariaruoto

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Reply with quote  #52 
Michelle,

Do you know why Fredricka mixed the Mastiff and the Anatolian? What need/job/purpose was she trying to meet in this mix? All "claims" are that they are "just like" Mastiffs - so what was the point? To add a sharp temperament? Or, was it for the so-called dry mouth?

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"I hope that someday they can understand that it's not 'just a dog', but the thing that gives me humanity and keeps me from being 'just a (man or) woman'."
~Biby '06

Maria S. Ruoto
Dunraven Mastiffs
http://www.dunravenmastiffs.com
Mastiffs4U Store
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Reply with quote  #53 
I would say that only about 10% of "breeders" are doing an ok to good job at breeding. Far be it from me to go up against the other 90% which cater to the masses who have little to know interest in quality breeders and dogs.
I commend all those who do not care for betterment and look to rescue to find their canine companions.

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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #54 
Angie,

It's a Chia pet sprayed black!...LOL

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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #55 
I and others dealt with fredricka over on mastiffweb about 3 yrs ago.  Below is an email that Fredricka sent a puppy buyer.  NOte she doesn't even know for sure what breed she mixed her first OEM with.  Also at that time Fredricka had a dog named George that was AKC reg. as a Mastiff and CKC reg. as an AM.  OF course when AKC was notified they didn't care that she reg. her AKC Mastiff as a diff. breed with the CKC because they did not recognize anything from the CKC (continental Kennel Club)  Here is the email from Fredricka to her buyer.

START COPY:

This is a partial email that deals with the above post. This is the story the "breeder" told back in 2001 to someone who had already purchased one of her pups. Note the original mix was with an unknown breed, only said to be such and such. Note that the original foundation male wasn't even born until 1990, you can look that one up. Note she says here she only bred with OEMs after the first initial mix. That's all I have to say on this because now I'm giving her free advertising

Forwarded Message:


Subj: Re: questions
Date: 5/24/2001 2:32:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time

From: flyingw@bright.net (Fredericka Wagner)
To: .........

Hi, ..........; will try to answer your questions; I have been
breeding my americans for
years, I imported my first
english from england many years ago and he
was the dog that I crossed to
the female, said to be anatolian, not registered;
someone gave her to me years ago, she was such a
great dog and looked like a
purebred mastiff to me, but
she did not drool at all. wonderful female. i just loved
her; I bred her to my imported
male, (her name was annie)
if you get an extended pedigree on ........which you can buy from CKC,you will
see her far back on the dam's
side of the pedigree;so many
generations back,she may be
off the six generation pedigree by now; all the rest
of ........is english mastiff.
He is about 7/8 english and
only about 1/8 the outcross
that dried up the mouth.Your
.........mother is Taffy, and
her mother was candy and her mother was Annie,the
original outcross female;
Candy's father was Bournewood Kenworthy Hudson, the dog I paid thousands for
and imported from england years ago.He
was from the best kennel in
england, an english mastiff
and his sire won Crufts three
times, a record never since
broken. Hercules Taffy's sire
is all english. I can fax you
a copy of Taffy's pedigree if
you would like.
ever since that first cross I have bred to english mastiffs....................................

END COPY - Link to board where posted.   http://mastiffweb.com/cgi/webdiskusjon/hoved.pl?df=4326&meldID=15597-5&hID=15597
 
 
Here is a diff. story that Fredricka told the same day???????
 
START COPY:
 

Valid input Jane; thanks for your thoughts.

I understand your point: The Anatolian Shepherd is not generally considered a great "house" dog – that much is true. However, the current American Mastiff was bred to more than just an Anatolian Shepherd:

Here are the facts (as simple as I can make them anyway!):
28 years ago, several OEM's were cross-bred with a mixed breed (1/2 Anatolian Shepherd & 1/2 Great Dane). A few very select pups from those litters where cross bred back with the OEM & others with an Irish Wolfhound/OEM. Hand-selected pups from best litters were then bed back w/ OEM's. The result became the American Mastiff. The pedigrees exist to back it up.

American Mastiff's have been bred within their own species for 21 years now! They look exactly like their OEM cousins & have as great a temperament (minus the drool). AN AMERICAN MASTIFF (from Flying W Farms) HAS NEVER BEEN REPORTED FOR AGGRESSION! How do I know, because people that buy dogs from Flying W are part of a family…we keep in touch. EVERY dog is accounted for!

No American Mastiff has yet achieved “championship” status in the AKC show ring - this is because the AKC is yet to recognize the breed! Furthermore the breed was developed not to achieve show ring titles, but to be a better a house pet (nothing more / nothing less). American Mastiffs have a great temperament w/ a solid & predictable personality.

They have maintained the same genetic standards for breeding maintained by the Seeing Eye in Morristown, NJ (36% inbred). NOBODY can say the Seeing Eye is producing poor quality dogs!

These are facts. Glad to help educate.



Fredericka
(IP: 68.99.173.40)

 

End Copy - link to board  - http://mastiffweb.com/cgi/webdiskusjon/hoved.pl?df=4326&meldID=15595-2-1&hID=15595




If you have the time to search Mastiffweb, now closed, somewhere over there I posted the reg. name of George AND the response from AKC.  I just  can't find it anymore.

Personally I feel the AM is a pure and simple marketing ploy to sell mixed breed dogs to unknowing buyers.  The lady didn't even know what the original bitch even was.  It was given to her with no papers and not knowing for sure what breed it was.   You can tell people til your blue in the face but There's always going to be buyers for these mixes and their owners will defend them to the end because they don't want to admit they were taken by a very shady lady and that their dogs are not and never will be recognized by a legit registry. 

I quit trying to discuss it WITH Fredricka or the people she had duped at the time.  They didn't want to listen.
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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #56 
Great post Linda!

It certainly clears up why no info was openly released by Flying W!

No doubt she recognized her mistake and decided to just remain silent after that debacle!



__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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mariaruoto

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Reply with quote  #57 
wow, linda! that post speaks VOLUMES!! Thank you!!!

she didn't even know what "breed" she was mixing in...I don't think anyone could be more irresponsible...I feel sorry for those she has fooled - they so blindly follow...but...then again - how can you feel sorry for people that simply refuse to "see" the truth when it's right in front of them! I can't believe they fell and continue to fall for this crap...especially the bull about the "original stock" being extensively health tested!



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"I hope that someday they can understand that it's not 'just a dog', but the thing that gives me humanity and keeps me from being 'just a (man or) woman'."
~Biby '06

Maria S. Ruoto
Dunraven Mastiffs
http://www.dunravenmastiffs.com
Mastiffs4U Store
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Kat

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Reply with quote  #58 

Apparently my post here in this thread has left me homeless. It was cut and pasted (maliciously) onto the AM forum and of course now they all hate me for it. But like I told them, given the chance again, i'd make the same post and I stand by everything I've said. So I am really no longer welcome there, and I am not entirely comfortable posting regularly here yet, so for the time being I am a wondering poster. Heh. It's just sad because i've devoted 3 years to that forum. I was one of the first 5 or so users to ever sign up for it. I kind of don't know what to do with myself now.


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Reply with quote  #59 
Kat you could do what I'm doing and read this, it's a really fun read
http://ia310931.us.archive.org/1/items/historyofmastiff00wynnrich/historyofmastiff00wynnrich.pdf
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Reply with quote  #60 
Kat is not homeless.  Three out of 500+ members of the Yahoo AM forum (there is another AM forum as well) have asked  why she didn't go to anyone -authorities, other breeders or privately contact other members with her concerns and proof. As Kat says, she has been posting on that forum for about 3 years. She has friends there and I for one don't understand, IF the things she states are true,  why she didn't even privately start to take action that would directly benefit that group.  I have 2 beautiful American Mastiffs that are everything they were advertised.  One is a littermate to her Thor.  I am not here to defend my dogs.  I probably will not even post again.  Just wanted to clarify that absolutely NO ONE  kicked Kat off that board or even asked her not to post again.  See, now she is misrepresenting me, personally.  
Thank you for your time.  You all have beautiful dogs.
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StergoMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #61 
I am so lost in all these different stories being told.  IF these crosses were done 28 years ago, and the AM is being bred to its own kind for the last 21 years, would the "original stock" and mixes be on a 4th generation pedigree?  The dog she speaks about being "unknown with no papers - Annie" is in that pedigree posted.

To me that just seems so close.  When breeders with EM's look at pedigrees 3rd and 4th generation plays a big role! 
Can someone explain to me (and some of the other new people) the genetics of 7/8 EM and 1/8 AS, i just don't get any of these claims. 

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Reply with quote  #62 
Hi Kat,

Please don't be discouraged and I hope you feel welcome here. Posting on the Internet is not an easy thing as many times your words are misunderstood or taken out of context. The Internet forum is a fun but dangerous thing. A simple one sentence post can have implications you may not be aware of or understand at the time of that post.

Forum's are not for everyone. Some make you feel more welcome than others. You may find one forum more to your liking than another. For instance, I had a profile on a forum similar to this but the online atmosphere was venomous at times.

It's clear that you are now educated about mastiffs and now you have an English Mastiff. The fact that you learned from an "error in judgment" tells me much about you.

Welcome! :welcome:
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Reply with quote  #63 
For instance, I had a profile on a forum similar to this but the on line atmosphere was venomous at times.
********************************
Sorry Mark but some of your words bring some things on and you are new.  You are not aware of all things and your words are not always clear.  You pull up things or say things that incite also.  I see you have no idea why no one is answering your MCOA thread.  If you ask a question, make a statement --You may get an answer--just because you do not like the answer--Should Not be the reason you bash another board.

Now Kat I feel you are welcome here.
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mariaruoto

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Reply with quote  #64 
Kat -

What Michelle did was completely wrong. Some people just can't handle the truth.

Please feel comfortable here.

__________________
"I hope that someday they can understand that it's not 'just a dog', but the thing that gives me humanity and keeps me from being 'just a (man or) woman'."
~Biby '06

Maria S. Ruoto
Dunraven Mastiffs
http://www.dunravenmastiffs.com
Mastiffs4U Store
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Reply with quote  #65 
Any organization or forum in this case, where you have a mix of experience, the less experienced should feel comfortable posting, but more often than not, he or she should read and learn what the more experienced people have to say.

However, that same less experienced individual should speak their mind and not be intimidated by those that may not welcome their presence. In my case, I simply deleted my profile and went elsewhere ignoring as best I could the people that took issue with me.

If one feels less than welcome, no one is to blame. Move on and hopefully find the strength to ignore sensitive issues until your level of experience has grown enough that you can stand on your own.
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Reply with quote  #66 
Quote from FlyingWFarms "American Mastiff's have been bred within their own species for 21 years now! They look exactly like their OEM cousins & have as great a temperament (minus the drool). AN AMERICAN MASTIFF (from Flying W Farms) HAS NEVER BEEN REPORTED FOR AGGRESSION! How do I know, because people that buy dogs from Flying W are part of a family…we keep in touch. EVERY dog is accounted for!"
I know for a fact this is a boldface lie. I have a friend that had to euthanize their dog from FlyingWFarms for severe aggression for no reason what so ever their dog walked past their daughter and grab her face puncturing it while she was sitting on the floor watching TV this was not the first incident with this as it growled and tried to attacked one of my mastiffs when it was only 6 weeks old.These poor people called Fredicka and she said yeah it happens from time to time.
 I RESCUED one of her dogs as she refused to take it back - the poor dog was in such bad shape it costed me $1000's to get him in condition to adopt him out. After he was adopted he became extremely protective of the family that he had to be muzled in public.

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Reply with quote  #67 

I never coddle, you want the truth --you get it, I have neither the time or the want to play and it stays in your mind when someone is direct and to the point.  Most people that you try to get away from are on every other board out there.  I choose the Best Two out there.

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inohio

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Reply with quote  #68 

We all (hopefully) grow and learn. It was almost five years ago, when my sister found Fredricka's website. She called and I looked it up. I was green in regards to researching (we had owned a computer for 4 yrs at this point, I had 2 toddler boys, not a lot of time for the required research, but frankly, I also didn't know how, I was still green at the whole computer thing, we still had dial-up!). I could not find any info to contradict her claims. I found a website that lists numerous dogs, their temperaments, etc. It seemed independent of Fredricka. And it stated that American Mastiffs were wonderful with children, heck, that was all needed to hear!

This was our first time with a so-called breeder. I emailed and called, and asked questions, I was lied to (and me w/o my crystal ball). I never dreamed a breeder would lie. (I had still never heard of a puppy mill yet! let alone the Amish! Not them! They are religious! They think our way of life is sinful. And heck they make great pies, they surely couldn't be bad people!) (and yes, there are people out there that hold degrees, respectable jobs and still buy their pets from a pet store, knowing what I know now I always try to explain the truth to them to prevent this) To the inexperienced, Fredricka's website looks great, it has testimonials from happy, grateful owners, claims of better health and longevity, and frankly, the drool thing was a bonus. Fredricka's states she has been breeding a long time, well over 20yrs. I was very naive, I thought if she has been in the game this long, she must be good, she was still here! And all those years experience! Surely she must be good, after all you can't have a website and publish lies, right? Surely someone would shut her down? (don't worry, I have learned a lot on the web and now question everything) Heck, according to just this thread, more information is still being revealed. Even some well seasoned respectable breeders are still learning more about Flying W's ethics. So, honestly, how would a green buyer expect to know these are lies? With all due respect, it is hard to see the truth when it is all cloaked in lies. Hindsight...always comes too late.

I never want or ask anyone to feel sorry for me because of my choice, I am a grownup and I have to live with the choices I make. But I do want people to know what I go through every day as a result of Fredricka and her creation. I want people to know it is a gamble. IF you win, hey good for you. But if you roll the dice and lose? It is not something I would wish on anyone, especially a family w/children. I want people to understand when you lose, this is not a 20lb dog with teeth and attitude, but 160lbs or more and a real liability, not only for you and your home insurance but your neighbors as well. About a year ago our 165lbs Am. Mastiff  growled when my 8yr old layed next to her and hugged her, she was chewing her rawhide. That is totally unacceptable, but I am pretty confidant I taught her a lesson that day and most likely will not happen again. She also has not had a rawhide since. I want people to know this happened in my home, with my children. I am a hovering, vigilant (whatever you want to call it) mom, with my kids and my pets. I am almost always on top of everything and everything is handled immediately. I wanted the very best for my family, I just happened to run into greed and deceit my first time out, lucky me.

So if I can help make a difference, I try. I don't tell people "don't buy from her" I tell them to research, research, research the Anatolian, you need to know about this breed, you never know when it's traits will come into play. I want them to inform themselves, talk to people. I tell them my personal story. I would never tell them Am. Mastiff owners are stupid. (remember what mom said? you catch more flies with honey than vinegar) I acknowledge there are happy endings, but I want them to know there are sad, dangerous endings also. Is this a chance they want to take with their children?

I know the legitimate Mastiff community is at the end of it's rope with this breed/breeder, but the sad fact is there are a lot of new potential inexperienced buyers that do not have the knowledge needed to know Flying W is not forthcoming with (in my opinion) the dark dirty secrets of the American Mastiff (and hey after all, it is quite profitable for them, isn't it?). I know it gets tiresome, some of you have known the American Mastiffs shortcomings for a long long time, you're experienced and are in it for the betterment of the breed, but for the inexperienced it is really their first day out, like a babe in the woods. Some call it stupidity, some call it naivety. But remember they are being lied to by someone that has been around a long long time. We don't always see lies coming until it hits us in the face, that is, once we are through denial.

As for me, if anyone wants to know my personal experience, I share. And now I feel I have more to share, as I think Kat will agree with me, now since I also own an Am. Mastiff (for 3 yrs), and now have a 4 month old English Mastiff, my experience that is right in front of my face is like night and day. Their demeanor and differences are highly noticeable. Sorry for rambling. But please don't give up informing unacknowledged buyers, maybe for every 10 buyers we can get through to 1, I feel it is worth it. I am not giving up.

Well, now I really must go, my 7 yr old has just invited his 7yr old buddy into our house and our American Mastiff just growled at him...yup...this is my life with Flying W's fallout.

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Reply with quote  #69 

hey Kim, sorry you had to learn the hard way and hopefully your story will prevent more puppies from being sold by unscrupulous people. After reading your last post one thing troubled me though and it is that you are depriving this dog of chew toys. Perhaps you might want to think of finding a more appropriate home for this dog i.e. without children and someone out there may be able to provide this dog with the things it needs, after having the dog altered of course. It just seems sad to me that it is being punished i.e. not getting raw rides now because of this. The Anatolian is a true working breed with a purpose and there are reasons it has the temperament it does. These dogs do not make good pets but some people have need for this utilitarian temperament.

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inohio

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Reply with quote  #70 
Our dog Ellie has many, many other toys, heavy duty rubber chew toys, stuffed toys, but, she is not possessive with those, just the raw hides. She is not even food possessive, the kittens can walk up to her dish and she will back up and sit and let them eat, then they rub against her and go on their merry way and she continues to eat. Yes, I heavily monitor that also.
And we alter all our pets, always.
Please don't feel sad for our dog, she is not being punished but this is what I deem necessary in my home. She does live a very privileged life in my opinion, we always bake her homemade treats, we walk in the early morning or late evening with her, when we are less likely to encounter people, she has several soft cushy beds throughout the house, wears Coach collars and has a never ending supply of toys. I am just trying to show we just don't take all her things away and punish her and she lives a horrible life.
We do the best we can, it is all we can do. We are not ready to give up on her. If she were to bite it would be another ball game all together.
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Reply with quote  #71 

interesting, I can't help but wonder why the raw hide. I do have my theories.

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Kat

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Reply with quote  #72 
It's interesting you mention that. I started training Thor from day one that while he was eating I could touch him anywhere and take anything from him (even right out of his mouth). Now that Leo is home (its only week #1) we haven't had any real issues of him being possessive over any of his things or toys. In fact Leo seems to have taken over Thor's blanket. They either each lay on an end, or Thor will lay next to it when Leo is hogging it. They play with his rope toys together, and there are bones all over the house (I think they are cow, I dont remember). It looks like a graveyard. LOL. He growled at him once, I took it away, gave him a different one, then settled Leo in with his own one. Taking that original away from both. They even share the food and water even tho Leo has his own and Thor doesnt seem to mind.

The ONLY thing so far they've had any major issue with is water bottles (go figure). I take the lids off them and the paper and they both love walking around the house crunching on them since they make such a loud sound. (lucky me!) Last night Leo decided he wanted to take Thor's, at which point Thor snapped at him. I don't want him to feel like I'm picking favorites since he was here first. So neither of them got it. I told him "nice" and it got put up until this morning. Then it got put back into circulation with a new one. No issues since, even when Leo stole it again.

Thor gets fed first and goes outside first to re-enforce his place as top dog (after me of course) to Leo. We've had very little issues with anything since he has come home, which I am thrilled with In fact Thor acts like the "big brother" he is and tattles on Leo when he's doing something he shouldnt be. It's hilarious!

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Kat

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Reply with quote  #73 
P.S.

My EM breeder said the only thing her dogs fight over is pig ears. So she doesnt give them out anymore.

P.S.S

Thank you for the warm welcome. Maria, I think I had been on your website before when I was researching breeders. I almost contacted you to ask you some questions since you arent far from where I live But once I talked to Jaclyn I knew the search was over.

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Cammie

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Reply with quote  #74 
Jann - I noticed that you posted on another thread (one of the 23pgs. ) that you have American Mastiff imbedded or in the background in your website. I have never set up a web site so it may be more simple than I am thinking. Could you explain how to do this so that others can also have this on their site and when a search is done for AM more EM breeders sites get pulled up. It is discourging to me that when I google AM the only site on the front page is yours and the MCOA. If more folks had this in their background I would think that more EM breeders sites would come up? and hopefully with the disclaimer and links on their front page.  

It also bothers me that when you google Mastiff, the first thing on the page is a picture is of two AM's with a boy, when you click on the pict. it takes you directly to an AM breeders site. Any way to correct this?

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clydeman

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Reply with quote  #75 
Wow, that's some good info I have been reading from everyone.

Well, the original intent of this thread was to come up with a way(s) to inform prospective buyers so they can make better choices.  There are some good ideas many of you mentioned.

The problem is that search engines (like Google), as I understand them, work alphabetically in some cases.  American Mastiff comes before English or Mastiff or before most all mastiff breeders web pages.  Is there a way that when someone does a search they see some of the testimonials (like mentioned in this thread) and facts about both the Mix-Breeds and our OEM's first or at least early in a persons search?  Of course, these facts should show the advantages and noble history of our breed while dispelling false advertisements.

This should be done somewhat tastefully.

Any other idea's, suggestions, modifications or solutions?

Also, feel free to keep bringing in more info.  You owners of both EM and AM's, what are the main differences you see between the Mastiff and that other dog? 

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Dwight
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