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Teresa

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Reply with quote  #76 

Now, Marge, that's really one of the stupidest things I've ever heard you say. NO ONE, me included, takes this situation lightly. If I had, I would have bred Foxy anyway. I feel VERY sure Heather feels the same as I do. It's a horrible disease and should not be bred purposefully. We should TEST TEST TEST. Marge, get a grip!


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margelutz

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Reply with quote  #77 
Thiola, is again for dogs that are stone formers, and from my understanding and reading -the options are Thiola OR the surgical procedure?
 
Hi Heather ,
I don't think that is true , even after that surgery they can still form stones .
 
Maybe go on there and ask ,But whatever the case .
I hope you would agree ,that its still bad news for the owners ?
 
And it should not be on their shoulders ,A breeder should Andy up  since it was their breeding's . ??
 
 
If your also a member of the Cystinuria list .
Then you will remember how terrible it was for the one Gal after Her Boy was rerouted ?? And all of the bleeding that went on ??
 
To have a dog Catheterized is 1200.00 each time .
And some have to be done more than a few times .
 
 
 
Marge
 
 

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Teresa

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Reply with quote  #78 

Marge, Heather is right. Know your facts first. Yes, bleeding occurs after the surgery, but after healing, the bleeding gets much better and eventually heals. No, the stones don't cause a problem after the surgery AS A GENERAL RULE because the boy is replumbed to pee like a girl and girls don't block. Cathing isn't necessary after the surgery. If I ever had a boy with stones, I'd do the surgery in a heart beat to save him the discomfort of recurrent problems.


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LuckyLady

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Reply with quote  #79 
I've been lurking here.  I certainly don't have the experience or base of knowledge that many of the folks here do, but I had the privilege of having lunch with Jan a few weeks ago and chatting about this topic. 

If all breeders were as dedicated to the integrity of their lines and transparency as Jan is, I wonder if we wouldn't have a definitive test for it by now.  As one who is new to this, I'm extremely grateful for her candor, honesty, and dedication to the breed.        

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margelutz

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Reply with quote  #80 
Marge, Heather is right. Know your facts first. Yes, bleeding occurs after the surgery, but after healing, the bleeding gets much better and eventually heals. No, the stones don't cause a problem after the surgery AS A GENERAL RULE because the boy is replumbed to pee like a girl and girls don't block. Cathing isn't necessary after the surgery. If I ever had a boy with stones, I'd do the surgery in a heart beat to save him the discomfort of recurrent problems.

Teresa ,
If I'm wrong ill be the first to admit it :>)
I'm trying to distort any facts concerning Cystinuria .that's is just a rerouting and its over .
And what Owners that have stone forming dogs ,have to go through .

Now you have been here , i feel trying to downplay this Genetic night mare .
You took the whole damn thread out of context .

Now before you tell me to know my Facts :>)  I think you sure as hell need to know yours before you jump in and  defend anyone .I will go no father on that being said . I'm sure if you keep it up ,just what your trying to stop ,will end up in a Bigger blow up than you expected . And no that is not a threat ,it is a fact


As for this thread ,it was asked by a breeder to others here on the list .
what would they do in their contract ,if a C+ dog was bred by them ?

I answered Her !!! On what i felt a Breeder should do .
I also tried to put facts up here ,that had to do with owners that had C+ dogs ,that had to be rerouted and been living on the pills . of 500 a month

That cost them over 32,000 over 5 years . of where they couldn't even afford a new truck

And you continue to go on .On how much it would cost a breeder to give back a Lousy couple thousand bucks :>) to an owner that had a C+ dog .

Now it seems to me ,that you feel its not  a very important ,genetic fault .

Where a Buyer would deserve , some money back on a breeders  Genetic faulty breeding

Even tho it was not their fault ,they still did the breeding ??  
NOW I'm going to leave this at that ,I have asked about the rerouting and  giving the pills so they do not form new stones .

If I'm wrong on that ,i will be back and apologize for my Ignorance on that matter .

Just so you understand ,I don't feel its anyone fault ,if a Breeder that has tested to the hilt .I don't care if the dogs were tested a thousand times .

I do feel a Buyer is due Money back if the Dog comes back positive ,and a full refund if it forms stones .

That's my story and I'm sticking to it :>) I'm trying very hard in not making this a pissing match .

So if you can add to this post ,on what a breeder should do or if it should
be in the contract ,lets get back to the true thread .

Marg e






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Teresa

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Reply with quote  #81 
Quote:
Now you have been here , i feel trying to downplay this Genetic night mare 


Marge, you could not be more wrong! I have said and continue to say that cystinuria is THE BIGGEST CHALLENGE we face in this breed and YOU KNOW I'VE SAID IT OVER AND OVER!!

Quote:
Now before you tell me to know my Facts :>)  I think you sure as hell need to know yours before you jump in and  defend anyone .I will go no father on that being said . I'm sure if you keep it up ,just what your trying to stop ,will end up in a Bigger blow up than you expected . And no that is not a threat ,it is a fact 
 


WTF, I have NO idea what you are talking about here since I'm not trying to "stop" anything!

Quote:
As for this thread ,it was asked by a breeder to others here on the list .
what would they do in their contract ,if a C+ dog was bred by them ?


And I responded that the buyer is not owed anything back unless the C+ breeding was done knowingly.

Quote:
I also tried to put facts up here ,that had to do with owners that had C+ dogs ,that had to be rerouted and been living on the pills . of 500 a month .I have asked about the rerouting and  giving the pills so they do not form new stones .
.


Marge, get your story straight. You said the people spent the money on the pills because they didn't want to go the surgery route. It's their choice to do it that way. As for me, I'd have the surgery. Again, in case you missed it in my other post, if they have the surgery, they pee like girls and the stones pass through the urine.

Quote:
And you continue to go on .On how much it would cost a breeder to give back a Lousy couple thousand bucks :>) to an owner that had a C+ dog .


If a breeder gave back $2000 to every puppy from the breedings, as I've said before, it could well go into the $30,000 mark! How can a breeder pay one person but tell the next one, "oh sorry, I'm not paying you"? You are being totally unrealistic. People need to go into this breed looking at health testing data AND realizing the limits of our current knowledge. If they don't want to risk a C+ dog, then maybe they shouldn't buy a puppy at all until a suitable test is available.

Quote:
Now it seems to me ,that you feel its not  a very important ,genetic fault .


AGAIN, this is about the most stupid thing I've heard anyone say in a long time. I will repeat YET AGAIN, I feel this is THE most important health issue we need to address IN THIS BREED!! COULD I POSSIBLY BE ANY MORE CLEAR!

Sheesh...


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Reply with quote  #82 
Quote:
I answered Her !!! On what i felt a Breeder should do .
I also tried to put facts up here ,that had to do with owners that had C+ dogs ,that had to be rerouted and been living on the pills . of 500 a month

That cost them over 32,000 over 5 years . of where they couldn't even afford a new truck

And you continue to go on .On how much it would cost a breeder to give back a Lousy couple thousand bucks :>) to an owner that had a C+ dog .

 

I am not going to comment on this, because giving the ADDITIONAL facts for this information would violate the privelege of being a member of the Canine Cystinuria list, and I would be crossposting without owner permission. 
 
Heather



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emarsh

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Reply with quote  #83 
Just an interesting note re. 'rerouting', I had a dog (toy breed) that came to me mature with terrible bladder stones - I mean boulders, and this was a little dog.  My vet (since retired, he was excellent) 'rerouted' my Pete so he peed from the base of his penis.  I had never heard of this, but the vet didn't want to keep putting this guy under to surgically remove the stones (brachycepahlic and not healthy and older). There was a couple of days of healing but he was home that day, and peed just fine from then on 'cept for lack of directional control.  Not an ideal situation, but manageable. 

Erika M.


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Micona

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Reply with quote  #84 
Well not even going to respond to Teresa's post.  She and Jan received a private post from me.  

As I stated a few posts ago, I did think this was a really good thread and really good discussion about our breed and some of the issues that are going on.  Again would love to participate in a thread about what we can do to raise it to another level and make some changes.   Either through the use of MCOA or not.
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margelutz

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Reply with quote  #85 
If a breeder gave back $2000 to every puppy from the breedings, as I've said before, it could well go into the $30,000 mark! How can a breeder pay one person but tell the next one, "oh sorry, I'm not paying you"? You are being totally unrealistic. People need to go into this breed looking at health testing data AND realizing the limits of our current knowledge. If they don't want to risk a C+ dog, then maybe they shouldn't buy a puppy at all until a suitable test is available.


Teresa ,
I didnt say every puppy !

I said those that come up postive ,Maybe half of the price ,those that form stones all of the price .

As you said not all will be stone formers !!!

Hell if people went in to the health issues  and realized how much it cost under normal things ,for this breed :>)

No breeder would need to worry :>)
Not many would buy them :>)  Just to go to a Vet ,for Vaccines its sometimes over 100.00 Bucks :>)

So to then be taxed with a C+ dog , it could be we need to put the  dog down ,or go with out eating :>)
or putting clothes on the kids back :>)

Marg e

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Reply with quote  #86 

Quote:

As I stated a few posts ago, I did think this was a really good thread and really good discussion about our breed and some of the issues that are going on.  Again would love to participate in a thread about what we can do to raise it to another level and make some changes.   Either through the use of MCOA or not.



I think the best way to go about this, for starters, is to encourage testing.  If more people submitted urine for testing, I would guess UPenn could further their research.
 
Also, I think an open database would be helpful.  The danger of that lies within the validity (or lack thereof as some might have cited) of the test - and providing inaccurate test results.
 
While Cystinuria IS a problem in our breed, and I don't have the statistics - but do you think Cystinuria is becoming more commonplace than it once was - or do we just have the means to know more about dogs that are affected via the internet and other resources?  Does anyone have the stats broken down any differently than on the MCOA site?

From MCOA:
 
Current cumulative statistics from 1999 through March 2007:
  • Total male dogs tested: 585
  • Total female dogs tested: 542
  • Positive male dogs: 58 (10%)
  • Positive female dogs: 1 (.18%)

Heather


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margelutz

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Reply with quote  #87 

While Cystinuria IS a problem in our breed, and I don't have the statistics - but do you think Cystinuria is becoming more commonplace than it once was - or do we just have the means to know more about dogs that are affected via the internet and other resources?  Does anyone have the stats broken down any differently than on the MCOA site?

From MCOA:
 
Current cumulative statistics from 1999 through March 2007:

  • Total male dogs tested: 585
  • Total female dogs tested: 542
  • Positive male dogs: 58 (10%)
  • Positive female dogs: 1 (.18%)
Hi Heather ,
Yes i do feel its getting to be more of a problem .
 
Specially now that more are testing , and even tho many will not admit they have it in their lines ,It always comes out sooner or later :>)
 
I think Breeders are going to have a rough road to travel .
If something isn't found in a way of testing
 
As you know ,its popping up in some of the top Dogs and Kennels .
 
I know its been over 10 years ,since i first heard of it .
 
And then  Breeders were giving samples ,at my first specialty ,i think it was in PA then .
 
But now i  know we are all surprised ,as to how often its popping up :>)
 
And it is scary to the breeders and the buyers  
 
Marge
 
 

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margelutz

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Reply with quote  #88 
    Today at 04:54 AM
Reply with quote #86

Quote:
I answered Her !!! On what i felt a Breeder should do .
I also tried to put facts up here ,that had to do with owners that had C+ dogs ,that had to be rerouted and been living on the pills . of 500 a month

That cost them over 32,000 over 5 years . of where they couldn't even afford a new truck

And you continue to go on .On how much it would cost a breeder to give back a Lousy couple thousand bucks :>) to an owner that had a C+ dog .

 

I am not going to comment on this, because giving the ADDITIONAL facts for this information would violate the privelege of being a member of the Canine Cystinuria list, and I would be crossposting without owner permission. 


Heather ,
There are no  ADDITIONAL Facts ,those are the facts !!  

Marg e
 


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Micona

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Reply with quote  #89 
Heather

Like the open database idea! No bashing, no defending, just open and honest discussion.  Love the idea!

We need all different people to join, older breeders, newer breeders, new mastiff owners, and old mastiff owners.  Ok, maybe take out the old thing, how about experienced mastiff owners.  After I blew by 40, I now become experienced instead of old.
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Reply with quote  #90 
Quote:
Heather ,
There are no  ADDITIONAL Facts ,those are the facts !!  

Marg e

 
As a fellow member of the Canine Cystinuria list - you are misquoting a very crucial part of the point this person was trying to make, which is unfortunate, really.

Heather



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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #91 

Quote:

But now i  know we are all surprised ,as to how often its popping up :>)



Which brings us back to the popular sire syndrome.

If there is an increase in any disease, we must look at the pedigrees for commonality. At times we can see it and at other times it may be less obvious, but if a sudden burst of a disease appears to be increasing, it can be due to the overuse of a particular sire, or the saturation of a popular sire going further back in the pedigree. Bitches that appear on both sides of the pedigree may also be suspect.


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"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
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Reply with quote  #92 
Quote:
If there is an increase in any disease, we must look at the pedigrees for commonality. At times we can see it and at other times it may be less obvious, but if a sudden burst of a disease appears to be increasing, it can be due to the overuse of a particular sire, or the saturation of a popular sire going further back in the pedigree. Bitches that appear on both sides of the pedigree may also be suspect.

 
But WHERE is the data that is stating there IS a sudden burst of a disease?  What is the difference in percentage of dogs being diagnosed say 5 years ago vs. now?  If there IS an increase - is it due to increased testing and knowledge (before maybe only dogs were diganosed when they formed stones and blocked, as opposed to now - we can find out about ALL dogs that test positive even though they may never form stones) or more dogs actually having the disease?

Heather



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margelutz

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Reply with quote  #93 
If there is an increase in any disease, we must look at the pedigrees for commonality. At times we can see it and at other times it may be less obvious, but if a sudden burst of a disease appears to be increasing, it can be due to the overuse of a particular sire, or the saturation of a popular sire going further back in the pedigree. Bitches that appear on both sides of the pedigree may also be suspect.


Hi Steve ,
I do agree with You on the pedigrees and Saturation of those Pedigrees ,with the Sires and the Bitches on both side of them .

On some of those pedigrees up on Lindas board ,you will see how that has occured in some of them .

And Heather first off we didnt know ,we need to test more than once .

As Jan said in Her post ,all of Her pups were tested ,before they left her .

But now we are finding that we need to do it maybe every year .

So Im sure  that out dated count that you put up from MCOA site .
Will be a big surprise to us all :>(


And many good breeders as well as Great pedigrees ,will also be shocked

If we dont get a handle on this .

Marge

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Reply with quote  #94 
Heather,

The Mastiff community is a pretty close system. If a condition seems to be talked about more often than usual, perhaps that can be a red flag and alert breeders to the possibility of a potential outbreak due to a common denominator.

Hard to stonewall the breakout, since it will affect pups outside of the influence of the breeder, who's dog may be in question.

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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #95 
Quote:
The Mastiff community is a pretty close system. If a condition seems to be talked about more often than usual, perhaps that can be a red flag and alert breeders to the possibility of a potential outbreak due to a common denominator.


The big thing to talk about 5 years or more ago on message boards was hip dysplasia - and what dogs had it and who was using dogs that didn't pass OFA's - does that necessarily mean there was an outbreak of it at that time more so than other points in history?  Does that mean since it's not as much the "hot topic" that we have eradicated it or gotten a handle on it?  In my opinion, the answer to both is no.

To be honest with you - I think people are AGAIN talking about Cystinuria, but there was just as much talk about it - more 3 years ago and then 2 years ago when Lisa Filu was kind enough to collect all that urine at Bucks two years in a row.  They also had someone collecting samples at the National those two years as well.

Heather



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Reply with quote  #96 
I am not saying that Cystinuria is not important, I am just saying that without accurate data I am questioning wether the instances have increased, or wether people are just talking about and sharing information more frequently.

Heather

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Reply with quote  #97 
If pups/dogs/bitches come down with symptoms and get flashed on forums, it's a red flag.

Unless it gets stonewalled.

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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #98 
Quote:
If pups/dogs/bitches come down with symptoms and get flashed on forums, it's a red flag.

Unless it gets stonewalled.

 
What do you mean by this?
 
Heather



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Reply with quote  #99 
Quote:
Marge, I know you just got an adorable new baby. Do you mind if I ask if you puppy was guaranteed against cystinuria or against it being a carrier (can't remember if it's a boy or girl right this second...not enough coffee yet)? If so, what kind of guarantee was made?


I happen to own the sire of Marge's puppy. He has recently ( Sept 2008) been tested for cystinuria and cleared by UPenn. He is now 6+ years old. The chances of him developing cystinuria at this age are slim to none. His sire was tested before him and also clear. His dam was tested as was his grand dam. All negative.

There is no doubt in my mind that the pups breeder would do the right thing by Marge or anyone with a litter mate financially if a pup
turned up C+. Even if it was just to offer to replace the puppy down the road.

Oh and just for the record, early on in this thread a statement was made that there are NO  breeders giving a warranty on cystinuria. I beg to differ. I have been doing this very thing since 2006.
It is posted clearly on my web site : The Mastiff is warrantied to the age of 24 months against developing cystinuria as diagnosed by Cystinuria research laboratory at University Of Pennsylvania.

Hopefully the time will never come that I will have to back this up.
But if it does, yes I will take care of it.

It is getting very scary out there. I am currently looking for potential mate for one of my girls this summer. Many of the boys I have looked at now have close relatives ( nieces, nephews, first cousins ) that can be tied into potential C+ pedigrees if we play connect the dots. And to be honest, no matter how much I like those boys I am backing off from going in that direction until we have a DNA test.



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Teresa

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Reply with quote  #100 
Hi Eileen,
  Yes, Marge is very lucky to have one of your babies.

  As for the guarantee, up to 24 months isn't long enough for it to be an enforceable guarantee. Most boys don't start testing positive until older. The litter that recently had so many C+ boys did not start showing up as positive until they were over 3 years old. That's the norm....

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