Register  |   |   |  Calendar  |  Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 6 of 8     «   Prev   3   4   5   6   7   8   Next
LuckyLady

Registered:
Posts: 143
Reply with quote  #126 
Can I add another dumb newbie questions/fly in the ointment: 

Is there any data on how many of these dogs that are testing positive actually become symptomatic? 


 
0
margelutz

Registered:
Posts: 444
Reply with quote  #127 
    Today at 05:09 PM
Reply with quote #130



Can I add another dumb newbie questions/fly in the ointment: 

Is there any data on how many of these dogs that are testing positive actually become symptomatic? 

 

HI ,
No such thing as a dumb question :>) Your new to the breed .
So ask away ,there will always be an answers from someone :>)
 
I think on the MCOA Website ,it says 10%
But that Site is outdated ,and thats out of 500 mastiffs 
 
Im sure much more tha that has been tested ,by now  
 
So im not sure anyone knows for sure :>)
 
Now that so many more are testing Maybe they will have new numbers :>)
 
Maybe Jan would know ???????????
 
Marge



__________________
lutz96@windstream.net
0
Darkmstf

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 363
Reply with quote  #128 

No I don't believe UPenn is keeping any data like that... but you could ask.  Many dogs may test positive but do not believe they have been keeping tabs on those who actually produce stones vs. not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyLady
Can I add another dumb newbie questions/fly in the ointment: 

Is there any data on how many of these dogs that are testing positive actually become symptomatic? 


 


__________________
***********************
Lisa Edwards-Filu
Darkside Mastiffs
http://www.mastiffbigdog.com/darkside
THE ORIGINAL HOME OF MULTIPLE BRINDLE CHAMPIONS
0
LuckyLady

Registered:
Posts: 143
Reply with quote  #129 
Quote:
Originally Posted by margelutz
    Today at 05:09 PM
Reply with quote #130



HI ,
No such thing as a dumb question :>) Your new to the breed .
So ask away ,there will always be an answers from someone :>)
 
I think on the MCOA Website ,it says 10%
But that Site is outdated ,and thats out of 500 mastiffs 
 
Im sure much more tha that has been tested ,by now  
 
So im not sure anyone knows for sure :>)
 
Now that so many more are testing Maybe they will have new numbers :>)
 
Maybe Jan would know ???????????
 
Marge




LOL!  Jan is probably really tired of talking to me by now!  I've already used this week's allotment of time spent pestering her on happy tail syndrome.


0
medievalmastiff

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 703
Reply with quote  #130 
Of the two boys who tested positive that came from breeding's of mine....one formed stones at 4 years....he was not tested until that time.  The second, who was tested when we found out about the first and who was a nephew of the first, tested positive at 14 months.  He has not totally blocked but forms sludge and needs to be catheterized.  The first boy was the only positive in a litter that had 4 boys, the second was the only boy in the litter.  I have his 4 sisters and will not breed them, since there is no way to know if they are carriers or not, and to me to continue to breed on a line that is producing this genetic disease is not ethical.  Everyone always talks about bettering the breed,  and I would like to ask the breeders who are breeding males and females with positive siblings or sires just how this is bettering the breed?  I have two beautiful brindle girls that every time I look at them I wish I could breed them,  but I won't because I will not cause anymore pain to a dog from them or put the expense of surgery on any other unsuspecting owner.   Yes there is a chance that they are not carriers but I am not willing to take that chance. I have waited 4 years now for them to come up with a DNA marker so maybe I could breed one of them, but they are going on 5 now and its just not going to happen.  I have other girls from different lines and I have continued on with them, and my brindle chicks will live their lives out as my beloved, beautiful pets.  I bred the first boys sister before finding out that cystinuria was in the line, since he did not block until four.  I wish I had known before breeding her, because that breeding would never have happened.  We all make choices when breeding but to breed knowing we could produce a genetic disease is a big gamble.  I go to a casino if I want to gamble, I don't gamble with others pain, money and health.  So I hope the breeders out there who are taking that gamble are luckier than I am at the casinos!

    LisaG


__________________
Lisa Gannon
Medieval Mastiffs
0
margelutz

Registered:
Posts: 444
Reply with quote  #131 
Lisa :>)
Great post ,And your dogs are beautifull :>)
Marg e

__________________
lutz96@windstream.net
0
jcole711

Registered:
Posts: 177
Reply with quote  #132 
Lisa - VERY well said!! It is scary to me that breedings with dogs who have produced C+ puppies are still happening - and the breeders are not telling the prospective puppy owners about the history. I know this because I could have been one of those puppy buyers. If breeders think it's ok to breed dogs who have produced C+ puppies - then at least inform the puppy buyers and let them decide if it's important or not. It's such a small gene pool... one bad breeding can have far reaching effects.
__________________
Jen
We do not have to wait for Heaven to be surrounded
by hope, love, and joyfulness. It is here on earth
and has four legs!
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #133 
Congratulations Lisa & Jan!

You win the award of merit!

__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
Linda

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,234
Reply with quote  #134 

Lisa and Jan, I admire you both for coming forward. You are choosing to put the dogs and their owners well being first. I am aware that it is not easy.  An individual with good Character will do the right thing and let their feelings catch up with it later. Lisa said......"It could be a big gamble" I agree. Speaking for myself...........I would not take the risk.


__________________
God Bless,

Linda
0
WindfallMastiffs

Registered:
Posts: 36
Reply with quote  #135 
Hey Lisa, I hear ya, I feel the same way you do, how can I intentionally breed a dog I know who could poss. be a carrier and produce dogs who may end up in pain and suffer this disease, or one who might bite someone due to the owner not knowing the dog is in pain as he is blocking. 
I know I have a few dogs out there currently at risk for developing this disease and I keep sending out reminders to test their dogs.  I sent out Christmas cards last year and included the forms for submitting urine, the dogs pedigree and a letter explaining in detail about the disease (in case they didn't get their e-mail I had been sending).  Some of the dogs I have placed are on full registration and I have told the owners what I plan to do with my girls, I have recommended what they should do, but I have no control over what they decide in the end.  Tho so far, most all agree with me and don't plan to breed, but do want to continue to show their dog, because that is their time with their dog.
Recently I have gotten a couple posts from friends who plan to breed or have bred their girl (which are closely related to C+ dogs) and when I told them about the fact of the probability of their girls being carriers, they didn't want to hear it.  One just plane ignored my post, the other basically told me they plan to do what they want whether I agree or not. 
I have lost friends since producing C+ dogs and guess I will be losing more being an advocate for the breed!  Sad place to be!  But I love this breed and will continue to try to help the Betterment Of The Breed!

Laura, I think Lisa is right on saying UPENN hasn't tracked how many dogs tested + have formed stones.  I would also like to know of the dogs tested, how many are repetitively tested or are they 1st time tested.  How many were tested for screening or how many tested because they blocked.
We have more questions for them then they have answers for us, ugh!!

Jan



__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jan & Chuck McNamee
Windfall Mastiffs
Breeding for Quality not Quantity
Come visit us at:
http://windfallmastiffs.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
0
WindfallMastiffs

Registered:
Posts: 36
Reply with quote  #136 
So to be safe from  that breeding anyway ,the line should be scraped ,just to be safe ???

Well maybe before all are spayed or neutered there will be a DNA test and we can keep the line.  However I don't think there is major concern as most never planned to breed anyhow.  Most every pup owner have always told me they first and formost they just wanted a good pet, breeding was not the main purpose of buying a pup.

Jan

__________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jan & Chuck McNamee
Windfall Mastiffs
Breeding for Quality not Quantity
Come visit us at:
http://windfallmastiffs.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
0
stilabby

Registered:
Posts: 476
Reply with quote  #137 
"When do you continue breeding and when do you stop"

I've been following this thread, along with a few others, and wanted to voice my concern/opinion if you dont mind.

There are several very good breeders on this board who have said they have stopped breeding, affected lines, until something is found on the cystinuria issue. I can only imagine how frustrating it must be for you to know of breeders that seem to not give a rats butt about it. It makes me mad and I'm no where close to being in your positions.

I know of one 'breeder' that is studding out her boy who produced a positive male....why?  Why not freeze him until a test is found?  Why would someone want to breed their bitch to him? Thinking you may be safe because "it's xlinked"...what if it's not....

Another 'breeder' just bred her bitch whose sire tested "positive" and threw a positive boy with her maternal grandmother.  WHY? ummmm....red flag? I just hope the puppy buyers are going to be made aware of this. Or, better yet, was the stud dog owner aware?

And I am sure there are others out there doing the same.

It's one thing to not know about this issue, but I doubt there is one mastiff breeder out there that has not heard about cystinuria. So is it the money? Or is this the way they are going about 'bettering the breed'?  I'm not trying to 'fan the flames' here, I just honestly dont understand some peoples way of thinking. I dont think people should stop breeding period, but they need to be more CAREFUL of what they are breeding.

Like I said, in my humble opinion, I can understand how frustrating it must be for breeders like Lisa, Jan, Eileen (just to name a few). I'm sure it must make you want to just throw your hands up in the air and say I quit! It must feel like a damn slap in the face. But please know that there are a lot of people that appreciate what you are going through and what you are doing for this magnificent breed.  And I applaud you for your efforts.

__________________
Martha
http://www.machreemastiffs.com

"The greatest oak was once a little nut that held its' ground."
0
EXCMastiffs

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 2,666
Reply with quote  #138 
Jan McNamee aside, lol - (as Jan routinely tests for everything available, and not just on breeding stock - but on Mastiffs placed in pet homes, etc.)

I guess my question is still, however, why is cystinuria so much more important than other health issues?  Why does it take precedence over other diseases the Mastiff is succeptible to - and why don't people test just as much for those issues?

Is a Cardiac problem less of a concern than Cystinuria?

Is a Hip/Elbow problem less of a concern than Cystinuria?

Is Cancer less of a concern than Cystinuria?

Is a thyroid issue or skin allergies or poor temperament less of a concern than Cystinuria?

I could go on all day.  Some have the potential to be more life threatening/problematic, affect quality of life more than others.

However - the point I am trying to make, while I DO feel Cystinuria is important - there are other equally important issues at stake and ALL of those things should be taken into consideration together/as a whole when dealing with breeding animals.

Heather

__________________
Excelsior Mastiffs
http://www.excelsiormastiffs.com
0
stilabby

Registered:
Posts: 476
Reply with quote  #139 
Hi Heather
I totally agree with you that ALL things should be considered before breeding and I dont mean to imply that I think cystinuria is MORE important than any other health issue as I dont think that at all. I only commented on cystinuria because this seems to be the direction this thread went. 

The reason I feel this disease is more pressing is because it is such an unknown.  We can get hip/elbow xrays, we can do echo for cardiac, we can test thyroid, allergies, get dna on pra & cmr & long coats. Those tests, correct me if I'm wrong, are equally conclusive on both males and females. (I have my own theory on cancers, but you'd think me looney if I told ya, so I'll keep that one to myself ) With all that information, breeders can make well informed decisions on their breedings, as far as health is concerned anyways.  We just need to be able to add cyst to that list and hopefully we'll be able to do that sooner than later.

__________________
Martha
http://www.machreemastiffs.com

"The greatest oak was once a little nut that held its' ground."
0
margelutz

Registered:
Posts: 444
Reply with quote  #140 
 guess my question is still, however, why is cystinuria so much more important than other health issues?  Why does it take precedence over other diseases the Mastiff is succeptible to - and why don't people test just as much for those issues?
 
Hi Heather ,
Since we have no tests for Cystinuria ,and it can be one of the most  expensive  Genetic sickness that has come up .
 
I hold it way above any other genetic problem out there .
There are Pills for heart ,there are surgery's for Hips and Elbows .
 
Yes there  is a Surgery for Cystinuria also .
But If you have to throw the Pill in ta boot .?
 
And it seems its spreading pretty damn fast ??
Plus taking a lot of good lines out of the breeding program .
 
I cant believe your asking this question :>)
 
With  this subject being on all the boards
 
Hell after  here and on Linda's board ,you would have to know everything that up dated ,on this ??
 
So why would you even ask that ?
Marg e
 
 
 

__________________
lutz96@windstream.net
0
margelutz

Registered:
Posts: 444
Reply with quote  #141 
not heard about cystinuria. So is it the money? Or is this the way they are going about 'bettering the breed'?  I'm not trying to 'fan the flames' here, I just honestly dont understand some peoples way of thinking. I dont think people should stop breeding period, but they need to be more CAREFUL of what they are breeding.
 
Hi Martha :>)
I agree with you 100%
Marg e

__________________
lutz96@windstream.net
0
margelutz

Registered:
Posts: 444
Reply with quote  #142 
No matter how much health testing is done and the sire/dam pass with flying colors does it mean that the offspring will be free of any health issues!   There is no test for cancer, and cancer IS a death sentence.

HI Connie :>)
 agree Cancer is getting to be an issue also

 Is it proven that cancer is a genitic factor ?
Or can it also be a enviromental factor ?




 I think a breeder can only do what a breeder can do .
Im sure out of some litters some will have Cancer or Heart problems ect .

But if a breeder knows full well they Have Cystinuria in thier lines .

And feel its ok to lay this at the feet of owners ,shame on them .

Marg e

I



__________________
lutz96@windstream.net
0
margelutz

Registered:
Posts: 444
Reply with quote  #143 
    Today at 06:53 AM
Reply with quote #141



"When do you continue breeding and when do you stop"

I've been following this thread, along with a few others, and wanted to voice my concern/opinion if you don't mind.

There are several very good breeders on this board who have said they have stopped breeding, affected lines, until something is found on the cystinuria issue. I can only imagine how frustrating it must be for you to know of breeders that seem to not give a rats butt about it. It makes me mad and I'm no where close to being in your positions.

I know of one 'breeder' that is studding out her boy who produced a positive male....why?  Why not freeze him until a test is found?  Why would someone want to breed their bitch to him? Thinking you may be safe because "it's xlinked"...what if it's not....

Another 'breeder' just bred her bitch whose sire tested "positive" and threw a positive boy with her maternal grandmother.  WHY? ummmm....red flag? I just hope the puppy buyers are going to be made aware of this. Or, better yet, was the stud dog owner aware?

 
HI Martha :>)
 
I think the names of these breeders should also come out .
Why should just those decent breeders be labled .
 
And not the Breeders that care so little for the breed ?
I'm betting they are not telling their  buyers .
Or they are not making it a big deal
 
But down the road it will come out ,by a Mad Buyer who has to  either put their dog down ,cause they cant afford to keep Him going .
If hes a stone former . 
 
 
Or the Dog gets a UTI issue , As for the Bitches who would know ??
 
I don't see any Mastiff out there ,that needs to be bred .
With this genetic nightmare
 
 
And I'm sure most of us knows who's who's ,in the cystinuria ring
 
Marge


__________________
lutz96@windstream.net
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #144 
Quote:

This whole thread not only smacks of a witch-hunt and/or vendetta



The practice of concealment, has been an ongoing issue in Mastiffs for many moons, this is nothing new!

Years ago it was about fluffs, since they were obvious once produced. Today it can be about any genetic disease, or non genetic components, just as long as it doesn't come from "our" lines!

Or it can be about record keeping and paternity (a bit more difficult with the advent of DNA testing, but still not impossible)

Anytime an issue gets raised, that can shake up those who may practice it, or be affected by it, once removed, it's conveniently called a "witch hunt"!

Well folks, believe it or not, but there are "real witches" among us!

Some may mask, conceal, omit, distort, revise, fabricate, deny, play holier than thou and pontificate their actions without impunity!

Non-witches need not worry about witch hunts and besides, who is hunting anyway!

Discussing matters that can affect an entire Mastiff community should not be forced into exile, or go underground, only to be whispered between trusted apostles.

If a known issue is affecting, or can affect a known dog's get, then these issues must be brought to the surface in order to prevent it's potential spread throughout the Mastiff gene pool.

To stonewall any information, or plead ignorance, just won't cut it!

To call it a "witch hunt" and hope the issue will just go away on it's own, is not doing a service to the breed, or to breeders that are doing their best to eliminate these problems from their lines!

Information, is a noble pursuit to the eventual betterment of the breed, even if that information may be painful at times!
 


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
margelutz

Registered:
Posts: 444
Reply with quote  #145 
This whole thread not only smacks of a witch-hunt and/or vendetta, but also reminds me of the mass hysteria posts from only a few years ago where a few people were telling everyone that epilepsy was rampant in our breed, when in fact the last info posted stated that less than 5% of all dogs will have epilepsy.  How are those figures compared to the 60% of all dogs that will have some form of cancer?


HI Connie :>)
This was not meant as a Witch Hunt :>)  I agree  that epilepsy ,was and still is an issue in the breed .

But as With Cancer I think some can be enviormental .
I also hope that a Breeder if they knew ,a lot of cancer was in their lines .

Would not breed .But How can they be sure ,its not enviormental ?

With Cystinuria ,we know its a Genetic thing , but don't know how to find it :

So where you got the Witch hunt theory . I don't know :>)

Wouldn't you as a breeder or a Buyer , feel you should be told if there was Cystinuria in the lines ,of a Pup your were buying ??

Or If you were going to breed to a Stud or a Bitch ?

Of course we know ,no one would want to do either

Marge

Marge




__________________
lutz96@windstream.net
0
CTYankee

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,242
Reply with quote  #146 
What are some of the things that could be done in the near future about this?

1). Are any records being kept or is anyone creating a database?

2). Could a voluntary test be done at the upcoming Specialty?

Mark

__________________
Stacey
Mom to Matthew, Noah and Lexington's Connecticut Yankee~Mack.
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #147 
I can't speak for "others", but the thread I started was accused of the same things as this thread!

So, it seems as though you believe that anything that may point to a causative source, must be made public by those that have no control over the source, or tests done, or not done by that source, otherwise one has no backbone, or credibility and are only on a witch hunt????

The responsibility of discovery is not on the person raising an issue, it is on the person/persons that know of an issue in their lines and stonewall that issue, because they can!

The burden of proof is on the breeder, not the individual that may hear of an incidence.

If a test was done that clears a particular dog, then any false "accuser" is left dangling in the wind, but if a test has not been done to clear the dog, then red flags may go up and suspicions might be valid!

Cancer is a nebulous disease and can be caused by a number of factors.

If cancer is prevalent in a particular line, then it should be made public.

This was another partial reason why I ended my inbreeding program with the lines that I had chosen. But that story is for another day.

You can't test for the big C, therefore, it gets less press than something that can be tested for like cystenuria.

It would be nice if we could screen for every disease including cancer, but we can't.







__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
EXCMastiffs

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 2,666
Reply with quote  #148 
I wish this many people cared this much about Cystinuria back in 2006-2007 when it was free to test your dogs- all you had to do was bring or send your urine!  Lisa Filu was at Bucks and there were other folks at the National collecting urine - working their butts off to collect and submit urine.  Carrie Klaiber even had people shipping urine to her house for her to bring to Bucks with her.  WHY is this such a frenzy about Cystinuria NOW, when so many people didn't care nor take advantage of these opportunities not even that long ago?

Quote:
Since we have no tests for Cystinuria ,and it can be one of the most  expensive  Genetic sickness that has come up .


Good news Marge - there is a test!

 
Heather

__________________
Excelsior Mastiffs
http://www.excelsiormastiffs.com
0
EXCMastiffs

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 2,666
Reply with quote  #149 
I think this is a real and valid problem in our breed.  However, pointing fingers and making accusations and judging the breeding decisions of others is most certainly NOT the way to make any strides toward breeding away from this.

Testing dogs, being open and honest, and making sound decisions with regard to your animals IS a step in the right direction.  I think if people started here we could at least gather some additional information and with more people testing perhaps UPENN could come to some better conclusions as to how this disease is manifesting itself in our breed.

Heather

__________________
Excelsior Mastiffs
http://www.excelsiormastiffs.com
0
EXCMastiffs

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 2,666
Reply with quote  #150 
As an example of how just talking trash and going around and around is NOT going to help our breed:

http://www.mastiffweb.com/cgi/webdiskusjon/hoved.pl?df=4326&meldID=20543&hID=20543

This is a thread from 11/2005.  It is now 3.5 years later.  Where have we gotten with regard to Cystinuria since then?  Does pointing the fingers at one dog or one bloodline make a difference in the long run?

Heather

__________________
Excelsior Mastiffs
http://www.excelsiormastiffs.com
0
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:


THANK YOU FOR VISITING OUR BOARD!!