Register  |   |   |  Calendar  |  Latest Topics
 
 
 


Reply
  Author   Comment   Page 8 of 8     «   Prev   5   6   7   8
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #176 

Since they're all dysfunctional in your example, perhaps we needed to be more selective years ago! So when do we finally bite the bullet?


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
sandragon

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 424
Reply with quote  #177 
Quote:
Since they're all dysfunctional in your example, perhaps we needed to be more selective years ago! So when do we finally bite the bullet?


So where do we compromise? If you go with the best testing health and longevity you dont always get the quality and type your looking for. You go with type then you dont always get the good health.. So what do you choose? health or type? Very few have both. No dog is perfect and all lines have something. But where do you settle?

__________________
Lorie
Sandragon Mastiffs
Where Mastiffs and Dragons play!
http://sandragonmastiff.com

This post may not be forwarded, copied,
transmitted, or reprinted without the permission of the sender!
0
Olga

Registered:
Posts: 1,460
Reply with quote  #178 
"I believe that you believe you do!"

I was not talking about myself only, lots of good breeders are reading this board and never participate in  discussions because other ways they will have no time to enjoy their mastiffs.
I do believe in what I do and on many occasions you told me that you are considering my mastiffs great representatives of the breed and very close to the mastiff standard. It is mean that you are as well believe in what I do.

"Mandatory " testing..  One of the reasons I left communist Russia was because of almost everything becomes " mandatory", this word lives bad taste in my mouth.
How many times I have been reading on the boards  breeders complains that OFA tests are not reliable and subjective, but this all we have ... Well, I first hand saw how not reliable it is when one of my dogs went from not passing hips at one vet to passing excellent at another...  Why would I want to use unreliable tool? Only because this is all we have at this time? Or to prove that I care about breed? Well, I do care  and I prove it by breeding very limited and only to a best of the best I can possibly find. Breeders I go to find out cross are very honest and very open about any possible problems in their lines .
I think that health testing should be left up to a breeders discretion , what kind to perform and to what degree. 
 
"If you have a trained eye, it can save you lots of money in the long term."

Eye become trained , that is why I really appreciate when breeders post pictures of their dogs , that way you can see and compare, many people learn visually, not theoretically and it will save lots of money for the beginners who will start right with a good representative of the breed.

Our breed has lots of health problem, everybodys lines early or later will have something pop up, no meter how many dogs were tested and how many times, and I do think that breeders should be working together  trying to find possible solution for those problems, not against each other. Unfortunately I see how threads like this, started with a good intentions,  sometimes taking a wrong curve and separates people, instead of bringing them together.
Olga





__________________
Visit us at: http://ivory-mastiffs.com/gallery2/main.php
0
HeartsDesire

Registered:
Posts: 1,000
Reply with quote  #179 

Excellent post Olga.


__________________
Lynda
http://heartsdesiremastiffs.com
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #180 
Olga,

I don't know the extent of the measures that you take when looking for sires, or dams. That's why I phrased my wording they way I did.

It was not meant to suggest that you don't go to the ends of the earth to find the best match.

That said, you have in fact produced many fine specimens of the breed.

We can't have a perfect system in order to reduce the occurrence of every disease, but to leave testing as an arbitrary alternative is foolish in my view.

Testing for HD can be tricky at times, but if it's found to be there and the X Ray clearly shows worn femur heads, or fragmented walls on the acetebulum, you don't need second opinions!
Bilateral hip dysplasia in a dog
Normal hips, for comparison


Testing for Cyst is also important even if there might be false negatives, or false positives from time to time. You can always re-test!

Heart, thyroid, etc., are also important in a breeding colony and the more information we get, the stronger our dogs can become in time.

We can't dismiss testing all because it's not 100% foolproof.

Insurance companies test for AIDS before issuing insurance. Do you think the test saved them millions? Should it be optional, all because some may come up with false positives?

Exceptions don't prove rules and in this country we shouldn't fear the word "mandatory", as it eliminated polio from our kids!

Since you outcross (if this is actually possible in Mastiffs) you are trying to inhibit doubling up on unwanted recessives. In effect, you are utilizing a known process that can reduce genetic defects from emerging in phenotype. This form of breeding is also not 100% foolproof, but it is still worthy if it worked for your breeding program. Some may prefer to inbreed in order to control the same recessives, but in either case, these techniques are not 100% without consequence.

Testing is also not without consequences, but it can still be a tool that enables all that understand the test to make more informed choices.

By not testing, or rationalizing it away, nothing can progress, since everyone at that point is in the dark. We wouldn't want someone who may have been exposed to AIDS to not test themselves and be honest about their findings, why should it be different when breeding Mastiffs?




 

__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
Highlander

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 5,206
Reply with quote  #181 
Steve,

Since you know who is back and in your area and what Board it is on..Why didn't you ask it about it's breeding plans of 2 different sizes of Mastiffs? It has now pulled that plan off it's website from what I understand.....BTW, that is not a Breeder...That is a Wanna-be..

__________________
Steph
"The superior man is modest in his speech but excels in his actions" Confucius
"Leadership is based on inspiration, not domination; on cooperation not intimidation. - William Arthur Wood

This post may not be forwarded, copied, transmitted, or reprinted without the permission of the sender
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #182 
Anyone who breeds Mastiffs is a breeder!

It's just a matter of facts.

There are experienced breeders, or breeders that have been breeding for a long time and producing lots of dogs over the years. There are breeders that produce only a few litters and have been breeding for a long time. There are hobby breeders & professional breeders and puppy mill breeders. There are inexperienced breeders and breeders who are fairly new, but knowledgeable. And then, there are experienceed breeders who are very knowledgeable.

These folks are all breeders, and seperating out the breeders of merit from the breeders of dogs, is the trick!

I don't see my job, as one who must confront every breeder in the world, that does or says something dopey!

I do point out things that I find disturbing, as in the case you mentioned. I raised the issue without giving any publicity. Globalizing people usually doesn't work and the best we can do, is focus on issues within our control and hope that small inroads are made over time!

We're not here to bash people, we are here to discuss issues that can improve the breed and discuss issues that can be detrimental to the breed. But it's about the issues, not the people behind the issues. If we focus on the issues, then perhaps the people behind the issues will see the light!

__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
Highlander

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 5,206
Reply with quote  #183 

So you are saying soomeone who claims to be a Breeder, but never bred a litter, is a Breeder....


__________________
Steph
"The superior man is modest in his speech but excels in his actions" Confucius
"Leadership is based on inspiration, not domination; on cooperation not intimidation. - William Arthur Wood

This post may not be forwarded, copied, transmitted, or reprinted without the permission of the sender
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #184 

No, I don't believe I did say that!

Once a pair is bred, it's an act of breeding, even if you get nothing on the ground, so technically that still makes you a breeder.

We're splitting hairs with the individual in question, since there's nothing produced yet, nor is there a union as far as I'm aware.

One can be a future breeder and there's no test, or formal body to stop ANYONE from practicing this craft!


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
Highlander

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 5,206
Reply with quote  #185 

I needed a good laugh tonight...Thanks Steve...


__________________
Steph
"The superior man is modest in his speech but excels in his actions" Confucius
"Leadership is based on inspiration, not domination; on cooperation not intimidation. - William Arthur Wood

This post may not be forwarded, copied, transmitted, or reprinted without the permission of the sender
0
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 9,230
Reply with quote  #186 




Bred exclusively by Deliverance Kennels


Billy Bob & Gomer proprietors!

Our motto........"inbreed inbreed inbreed....then... inbreed inbreed inbreed!"

 Billy Bob Jr.

 Jr's dog Homer



Gomer's brother-in-law Jeb



Billy Bob's wife Suzie May ( ain't she a looker! )

Com-on down an see us now... hear!



__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
0
Highlander

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 5,206
Reply with quote  #187 

I needed that also....And below the picture...For the Betterment of the Breed..it just threw me into laughter...


__________________
Steph
"The superior man is modest in his speech but excels in his actions" Confucius
"Leadership is based on inspiration, not domination; on cooperation not intimidation. - William Arthur Wood

This post may not be forwarded, copied, transmitted, or reprinted without the permission of the sender
0
LazarusMastiffs

Avatar / Picture

Registered:
Posts: 1,172
Reply with quote  #188 
I do point out things that I find disturbing

We're not here to bash people, we are here to discuss issues that can improve the breed and discuss issues that can be detrimental to the breed.
 
 
Just remember... That is the very same things that other people here are doing as well. 


__________________
Chris Murphy
Lazarus and Surazal Mastiffs
Helping preserve Old English type in the U.S. http://www.lazarusmastiffs.com
0
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:

Easily create a Forum Website with Website Toolbox.


THANK YOU FOR VISITING OUR BOARD!!