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HeartsDesire

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Reply with quote  #26 

Heather, excellent post.


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Reply with quote  #27 


Erika M.


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Micona

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Reply with quote  #28 

Good post Heather, so how can a group of us get together and make a change?  I would be more than excited to work on it!  Maybe if some of us got together and tossed some ideas around, both members of MCOA and non members you never know what a difference we might make.  Lots of experience exists here.  And I am sure lots of great ideas.

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EXCMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #29 
I don't know that it is something that needs to necessarily be an organized group to impact change?  I think it is about being open and helpful to other breeders/fanciers and working together in general.

I think it is important to discuss and have a working dialogue with other fanciers of the breed.  Belong to and get involved with national and local clubs where you are able to demonstrate your committment to the breed. Build personal relationships with other Mastiff breeders and fanciers based on trust, sharing of information and support. 

To plan breedings with more of a collaborative effort - ASK questions with regard to dogs in the pedigrees within which you are working or seeking to work.  Use those answers to make informed decisions that move in a positive direction - and not to slander and bring harm to those who offered it as part of the research or information gathering process.

Seek out dogs - try to see as many in person as possible - wether by visiting breeders homes, going to shows in both your area and other larger shows that might draw different dogs.  When unable to see dogs in person view videos of old Nationals (especially important to see dogs that are in pedigrees and unable to see in person due to time period having past), ask people to share videos via YouTube or other means to see dogs. 

There are so many methods of information gathering that can be such useful tools!

Don't be afraid of what you might find!  Use the information to steer away from problems and issues, and make good choices with regard to that information.   

A message board can be a good place to discuss broad issues - but is often not the most effective way to foster in depth conversations about specific dogs, nor issues that may plague certain lines - or what you might encounter going in a particular direction.  I am not talking about "gossip" or negative comments, but facts from which to make decisions that could positively impact a breeding program.

Heather


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margelutz

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Reply with quote  #30 
A message board can be a good place to discuss broad issues - but is often not the most effective way to foster in depth conversations about specific dogs, nor issues that may plague certain lines - or what you might encounter going in a particular direction.  I am not talking about "gossip" or negative comments, but facts from which to make decisions that could positively impact a breeding program.


Hi :>)
I agree everyone should be able to speak of a problem they have had .
In any breeding or pairs in the breeding's . .

We should all try and remember also that there are no perfect Animals .

Testing is a good thing ,but i don't feel type should be left behind ,for Excellent Hips and elbows .

So you have great hips and Elbows , Still have a lot sandwiched in between .

Heart, kidneys , liver ,lungs . And a hundred other things

A breeder can only ,do so much , but to still breed a problem in to a line ,for money sake .

Is truly shameful ,I think all breeders know ,that they can ,have some of these health problems .

Hell we are not Gods !   If you do end up with a Problem try and fix it .

And i think the only way to do that is ,like Harmony said .

Give another Pup ,Give money back ??  Don't feel as its a loss to your pocket book .

But a big plus to your reputation , shit happens ,all we can do is try and fix it ??

 Marge

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toadhall

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Reply with quote  #31 

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When does it stop?  When are you supposed to stop breeding FOR THE BETTERMENT OF THE BREED?  When do words translate into action?



Hi Monica, really interesting discussion. I think health testing is really important as a guideline..and is more of a challenge for many countries who don't have the tests or registries available. I think this is something the MCOA and America do really well, partly I suspect because of the large numbers of Mastiffs registered, so health issues become more obvious, or rather the issue is seen in a larger numbers of dogs and is identified as a problem maybe.

I am not naive enough to expect that there are no health issues in any line, even if there have been multiple verifiable tests done. Every dog carries some recessives and no one starts out breeding with fault free/recessive free dogs.

The challenge then of breeding, or being a breeder, is to know thats my role. To selectively breed to minimise faults and health issues.

The problem is that it is not that black and white. There are lots of grey areas and juxtapositions when dealing with genes or living organisms, it is more complex than that. How much is genetic and how much is environmental with some conditions continues to be debatable and I do not believe irradicating whole lines or pedigrees is the answer in all cases as many would advise. Its a short term solution rather than a long term one and as the article above says, can create more problems for the breed in the long term.

So your question.. when do you stop breeding for the betterment of the breed..requires some critical thinking! and for me will require ongoing reflection as experience is gained in the breed.

To move away from the hypothetical...

My bitch Eliza was hip and elbow scored, she got a reading of
5:7 on her hips = Total of 12
1:2 on her elbows
Now the Elbow Dysplasia Scheme here determined she had dysplastic elbows and recommended not to breed her. My vet thought the xrays didn't warrant a 1:2 score and that there were no symptoms of dysplasia and that I should breed her. 
Eliza's sire and Dam both had 00 elbows and I personally felt there were environmental issues that contibuted.

I decided to breed her to a Sire (Thor) who was OFA Good and Elbows Normal.

Three pups (used for breeding) of the four pups in this litter have been hip and elbow tested and scored with the following results;
Lola had hips 1:1 Total = 2
and elbows 0:0
Teddy had hips 2:1 Total = 3
and elbows 0:0
Shayla had hips 2:2 Total = 4
and elbows 0:0

So using testing as a guideline, what does the testing information tell me?
That my critics are right and I will have dysplatic readings in future generations because it is a genetic disorder?
That my vet was right?
That my guess that it was environmental was right?
That feeding my pups from 12 wks -14 mths on 20% protein was right?
That letting my dogs exercise and play freely so as to develop good muscle tone was right?
It really isn't that black and white or right and wrong. 

When I look at breeding programs, or pedigrees, what I look for is not whether there is an issue (like its a plague or something) as much as what the breeder has done or is doing to select away from it or to minimise it and whether I could 'work' with it for the betterment of the breed.


  

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Harmony

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Reply with quote  #32 
You have all added great and in depth comments to this thread; Lisa and Heather, very good points made.

Karen, I always like reading your point of view and value your opinions!!

I hope that more join in....


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #33 

Quote:

When I look at breeding programs, or pedigrees, what I look for is not whether there is an issue (like its a plague or something) as much as what the breeder has done or is doing to select away from it or to minimise it and whether I could 'work' with it for the betterment of the breed......Karen



VS

Quote:
In other words, the breadth of the pedigree is as important, if not more important than the depth of the pedigree in managing polygenic disease. Phenotypically normal dogs from litters with a high incidence of dysplasia are expected to pass on many genes that promote hip dysplasia. By selecting for breadth of phenotypically normal littermates of breeding dogs, and of parents of breeding dogs, all breeds should realize a decrease in hip dysplasia. In addition, the offspring of breeding dogs should be monitored to see which are passing the disorder with higher frequency......Dr. Bell

 

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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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WindfallMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #34 

First let me thank Connie for mentioning Jerald Bell, as for those of you who aren’t aware, Jerald Bell is the speaker this year at the 2009 Mastiff specialty on Health, please join us for the lunch seminar and listen to what he has to say, or better yet, purchase the tape we plan on selling!

 

 

>>>>> cystinuria?  I agree the testing for the latest health problem being discussed is sketchy and the jury is still out for many on what this disease is all about.  But when does breeding stop - does it stop when there is an absolute test and continue when their is an unclear test?  According to the MCOA health committee it is supposed to be tested for and stop breeding upon a positive (period).  The posts are right here on the board. 

 

 

This is what the Health Committee is recommending, not requiring, as we have no absolutes yet, so how can we require anyone to do what we believe to be right and UPENN has suggested to us.

 

 

 

 

>>>>.  If other dogs in a line have this disease such as another breeder experienced, you pull the plug - no - I mean it doesn't get much more genetic than 3 dogs in the same litter, right?  Isn't that too coincidental or is it just that that line has a hard time processing cystine? 

 

Since this pertains directly to me, I wish I could say it’s just a coincidence, but I can’t.  I think there are a lot more like me who turn their cheek and don’t want to know.  I wish I could lay blame elsewhere and continue to breed my girls, but I can’t!  I can’t because I don’t think that would be right morally or ethically.  I don’t think it would be right to put families thru the pain and suffering of a dog who might have this disease and suffer!  So to me this is when I believe a breeding should stop!  Is it hard because as you said there are no absolute tests to confirm I have a carrier girl, or that her daughter, the sister to the 3 C+ boys is a carrier.  But I just can’t see intentionally breeding when I know we may produce more C+ boys.  So for now, my girls are in limbo, waiting for the possibility that there will be an answer before they are too old. 

Many people don’t know us or our breeding practices, but since the time we began in this breed we did health testing and have spent many hours educating people on health issues in this breed.  One of the reasons I joined the Health Committee!

We have required ALL (pets and show pups) our offspring to continue health testing, minimum of hips, elbows, CERF (matter a fact, type Windfalls info OFA’s page and you can see for yourself how many dogs have complied with this requirement).  As more health issues came about, we recommended more tested, but haven’t required it, such as Cystinuria.  Before we place our pups they are cleared PRA thru parentage, CERF’d, Cystinuria checked (when they thought it was okay to do on pups) VWD tested and microchipped.  We even register our pups with AKC and Microchip for the owners to be sure they are registered properly. 

But low and behold, we have now been affected with Cystinuria!!  We are devastated and can’t even begin to say how we feel.  But what do we do?  We contacted all our pups’ owners and asked for those related to our “Carrier” girl to have their dogs tested and submit blood.  So far, all her brothers and ½ brothers that tested are negative.  All littermates to our C+ boys have tested and so for only the 3 of 7 tested (1 hasn’t tested) are C+.  All other boys from later litters are negative to date.  But they are younger and this can change.  But we will continue to test!  We are also testing grandpups to this carrier bitch.

We are pushing more to make awareness, but there are many who don’t want to know or don’t care.  I’ve had a few people contact me and tell me they are breeding their bitches, but when I told them their girls are related to C+ boys, they didn’t want to hear it and plan to go forth with their breedings!  Hum, when do you stop breeding?

I decided to stop and hope for a test before I breed my girls again from that line.  So guess I can tell you when we stop!

 

Now if only we could all be more open, maybe then we really could say: FOR THE BETTERMENT OF THE BREED!

 

 

Jan


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goldleaf

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Reply with quote  #35 
Hi Jan,
I went to your ofa page and you're not kidding!!!  You have a ton of tested dogs on there with some really good results.  Lot's of chics on there too.  I'm sorry about what you've been going through, but I sure admire you for standing up and facing it head on.  Great going!!!! 

I have to admit that cys. was never at the top of my list for testing until recently.  After what has been going on I sent urine in on all our boys, so it sure opened my eyes.  From now on I test all my boys and insist that any outside studs are tested before any breedings take place.  Thanks for being so upfront and bringing this to the surface.


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WindfallMastiffs

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Reply with quote  #36 
This disease, like any other, we all hope doesn't happen to us and if or when it does, what do we do.  I have always been one to speak out and fight it head on, not bury our heads in the sand and act like it hasn't happened.  I want to "BETTER THE BREED" not just breed!  Our girl who produced this litter was fully tested as was the male before we bred, this bitch went on to place in Brood Bitch and Breeders Cup at the 2008 specialty, you don't think I was shocked!  But if we want to find the answers as to how to stop this, then we must fight it, not bury our heads.  I must say also, that I can not be more proud of my pup owners who in turn have tested our offspring as they too want to help the breed.  Thank you guys!  My pup owners have also been very supportive over the years in all the fund raisers I have participated in, matter a fact, they donated over $1000. this year for me to walk in the health parade, another big kudos to them!!  Now most of these people are pet owners, never going to breed, not in for money, etc.....  Now if we could only get those who are producing these big guys to test their pups and when a dog does come up positive, get the litter mates tested and DONATE BLOOD!!!  We can not find the answers without your help and without your help things are just going to get worse and worse.  This is not just a Windfall Mastiff problem, this is a problem in all lines/mastiffs!!  Until we know the mode of inheritance and find the DNA, can't we all come together and try and help the breed.
We all don't have to agree with the test being good or bad, or should you breed your C+ or not, that is for you to do what you think is best for your dog, line, pup buyers etc.... but if this is all we have right now, then please lets use it to hopefully find the answer some day.  I don't care if you test your dog and don't share your results, but if the dog does come up C+, please just communicate with the researchers and give blood and urine, what can it hurt, but maybe one day it can help!!!
I remember when we were trying to find the answer for PRA and someone asking me why I was such an advocate for dogs to be tested and raising money for the research, my answer was "because I don't want to have it in my lines"; today I have still never been  affected with the disease and we have a DNA test available to prevent the spread.
So please whether you don't want to share your results or not, let's come together for this breed and do something that can make a big difference in our big guys comfort and well being!

Jan, you mention using a stud only if he is tested, well the thing to look for is a boy that is not only tested several times, but that his brothers and 1/2 brother (esp. from Mom's side) are tested too!  This will help in having a better idea if he is truly negative. 
And remember to test yearly or bi-yearly on active studs!!!!

So how about a new subject? 
"How do we guarantee our puppies from Cystinuria in our contracts?"
If we have done everything we can to prevent it before breeding, do we still guarantee against it in our contracts?  And how long do we guarantee for?  2 yrs, 3 yrs, lifetime?  If we have done nothing to prevent it and play the ignorance is bliss game, so we just act like it doesn't exist, do we just leave it completely out of the contract?  Is it even possible to guarantee against it?  And what do we guarantee, replacement pup, full refund, partial refund, a simple I am sorry?  What is the consensus out there?

Jan

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margelutz

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Reply with quote  #37 

"How do we guarantee our puppies from Cystinuria in our contracts?"
If we have done everything we can to prevent it before breeding, do we still guarantee against it in our contracts?  And how long do we guarantee for?  2 yrs, 3 yrs, lifetime?  If we have done nothing to prevent it and play the ignorance is bliss game, so we just act like it doesn't exist, do we just leave it completely out of the contract?  Is it even possible to guarantee against it?  And what do we guarantee, replacement pup, full refund, partial refund, a simple I am sorry?  What is the consensus out there?

 

HI Jan :>)
Well i guess Buyers would have to answer that one for you breeders :>)
 
 
A buyer pays anywhere from 2000.00 up for a show pup these days   .
 
 
So if they pay that kinda of money ,And the Dogs are guaranteed  from Hips and Elbows ??
 
 
Then i guess Cystinuria should also be in there somewhere ?
 
I do feel ,this is way worse than PRA , With that we had at least a pedigree to go on .
 
With this we have nothing   Not even the test really .
 
We have the Health committee saying one thing ,and UPENN saying another .
 
After 10 years of this ,something should be there ,so we could at least ,think this or that Dog has it :>)
 
 
We all know you have always tested your Dogs ,I dint think the blame is on you .
 
 
As with some others maybe they didn't test ,but no one really felt it was on our back door steps :>)
 
And for those that did test as you did ,we had no idea .
 
That one test was not enough ,But I feel as you do .
 
It should not be hidden , or someone shouldn't  blame someone else ,trying to make themselves look good .
 
  
 But breeders should also have some compassion ,for those that do have a C+ dog ,from their breeding's .
 
Cause now their, awesome Dog will no longer be show en .
And they will be worrying ,how to keep them from forming stones ,and keeping them for as long as they can ??
 
Some breeders would say ,this is over reacting ,i don't feel that way
 
Cause they know they ,wont be able to spend 600.00 a month to keep Him going on pills .
 
Or they wont be able to spend the money on a surgery and the pills ta boot .
So do i think they should get at least ,half their money back ?
Yes i do ,
 
After all breeders feel they are OK in asking sometimes 3 grand for a pup .
And i know it costs a lot to do breeding's these day :>)
 
Then they should be able to back up their pups on this Genetic nightmare also .
 
It truly wasn't your fault !  But its not theirs either .
 
This Genetic night mare is not like any other .
 
Any other ,it  will not cost an arm and a leg to keep the Dog going if he forms stones .
 
A hip you can fix and that's the end of that ,same for an elbow .
 
Heart probably need meds ,but no where as much as this Illness .
 
 
I myself don't feel any dog in a Line that has Cystinuria should bred .
 
I don't believe in the saying ,of well you can still have fun showing them ,but Just don't breed them !!
 
And if there was a breeding of any off springs ,before it was found out .
None should be sold as Show Dogs ,all should be told how bad this illness can be ,and  they should not be bred .
 
 
I guess More buyers should come to answer these question .
And how they would feel if they had ,the Bad Luck of getting a C+ pup
 
Again I say its no ones Fault ,"IF"  they did not know :>)
 
And if they did then shame on them ,there is no  Dog  ,that needs to be bred with C+ .
 
We have tons with Type ,and everything we would want in a Mastiff . With out breeding this in to them .
 
If something is not found soon ,So many truly great  Mastiffs and Lines will be gone .
 
So someone should hurry the hell up to get some kind of test done ,to save your lines as well others .
 
I truly don't feel that we are doing enough to so call
Bettering the breed
 
What would you all do if the tables were turned ?
 
Would you expect money back ? Would you still breed the line ?
  Helll lets put the shoe on the other foot :>)
 
Marge
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 




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Reply with quote  #38 
Okay, I will DEFINITELY BITE on this one and I can say this because I am IN the position of saying this.
 
First, I will stand and defend Jan McNamee to the end of time!! Do I think she owes me money for my Foxy girl (a Tangee daughter)? Absolutely, positively NOT! Jan did EVERYTHING she could to try to breed great Mastiffs. Am I going to breed Foxy? NOPE, she's spayed now and living the life of luxury with my best friends. Am I disappointed she didn't get to be my red-headed show girl? Well, duh, of course, but it wasn't anyone's fault! I will do all I can to help Jan with the blood results from the offspring of Tangee, but to blame her one iota is just WRONG. SHAME on her puppy buyers that are blaming her and/or shunning her!! Shame on those that are NOT sending in blood/urine to the study. She truly tries harder than any breeder I know to breed great dogs!!!! Anyone with a lick of sense knows that stuff just happens in breeding sometimes. Our society has became a bunch of blaming whoever they have to for bad stuff happening. SHIT HAPPENS and it's not always anyone's fault guys. If the breeder does their very best to avoid issues, then it's just fate. Be mad at fate, but my gosh, don't be mad at the well meaning breeders!!
 
 As for a REFUND, GEEZ MARGE, do you really think any breeder has the money to refund half of every puppy sold out of a bitch after this long? Let's see, I would guess you'd have to have about $30,000 just laying around the house...I know I sure as hell don't. It's not like she "took a chance knowing the possibility existed". Besides, what you don't realize is that there are tons of pedigrees out there that "might" be affected and I assure you NONE are guaranteeing against cystinuria right now. For that matter, many of the great stud dogs out there are NOT EVEN TESTED!!!! Now THAT is where we have a problem. NOT with breeders who are truly trying.
 
Okay, off my soap box now. You just hit a really sore spot with me (BTW, it wasn't aimed at you personally Marge; it was aimed at those casting stones at Jan behind her back and all those people who don't test yet but have no problem criticizing others who come up with C+ in their lines.)

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margelutz

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Reply with quote  #39 

Okay, off my soap box now. You just hit a really sore spot with me (BTW, it wasn't aimed at you personally Marge; it was aimed at those casting stones at Jan behind her back).

 

 


Whoa Teresa :>)
I don't think anyone was blaming Jan for anything .
I was just answering her thread on here :>)

I know  i Sure the hell would expect a refund of some kind :>)

And no one that i know of ,have been talking about Jan behind her back

Those of us that know Jan ,and i have known her well over 16 years now :>)

I don't feel anyone should blame Her for this .Or anyone else ,as i said in my post :>)

She has been testing ever since i knew her ,and would never ever breed to an untested Dog or Bitch .

This happened so, I guess many more , breeders as i suspect  ta boot .
Will have to deal with this .

You did have your Gal fixed .But some would not have done that .
They would feel that the money would have been way more important .

For a show Dog than a pet pup on limited registration .

So good for you :>)
And please ,Some breeders make a damn good buck on breeding's and on Stud fees .

So if they cant afford to Guarantee their pups ,why even have a guarantee ?
This way buyers know what to expect :>) NOTHING !!!

If they did guarantee  for cystinuria , they may never have to fill it anyway ,if the dog never has it ?? Hell most of us , guarantee Hips and elbows ,Don't you ? I know i did :>)

This  is not about Jan , She asked what a Breeder should do ?
I said what i thought a Buyer should expect ??Plain and simple
PLEASE READ MY LIPS :>) HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH JAN . And Teresa let me please say this :>)

Who ever had Cystinuria in their lines ,would be stoned
Would you touch a line with it ?? Would Jan ? Would I ? NO!!!!!!!!!!

Can you blame us ? NO!

It Happened its here so the only thing to do is lets deal with it ??
Marge




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Teresa

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Reply with quote  #40 
Hey Marge, as I said, I was not singling you out, but yes, Jan has had her fair share of heartache from people over this whether you've heard it or not. 'Nuf said about that though.

As for the refund, I stand by my original statement. I DO NOT expect a refund. A breeder can try to stop many thing and can make some educated guesses about what they can and can't predict. C+ isn't one of them yet. WE CAN TRY to prevent breeding to it, but unless we get everyone on board with testing, even the best of intentions can be thwarted. Seriously, Marge, hips/elbows can be seen within a short amount of time and it's easy to prepare to honor those guarantees, but what about this hideous disease that "hides" for several years. In several years, many pups could be born to a bitch without anyone knowing it was a problem. I ask again, do you really think any breeder could cough up $30,000 to pay everyone back for all those pups? I STATE IT AGAIN, I COULD NOT! NOW, if someone purposely bred a C+ boy and lied about it, I'd have a REAL issue with that breeder!! Fortunately, I have not encountered anyone like that.

Let me go even a step further on this subject. MUCH ado has been made about diet exacerbating cystinuria or even causing it. It's even been said that feeding high protein diets rich in chicken can CAUSE the test to show positive in a negative dog. Well, I decided to put it to the test with my own boy. He tested negative a couple of years ago. I just retested him again and fed him exactly what the diets says should cause him to spill cysteine if he were a C+ boy! Guess what, he came up negative again. SOOOO, my point here is that instead of trying to force the test to be negative by feeding no chicken/soy or barf diets, if we truly WANT to avoid spreading this disease, maybe we should take advantage of the flaws in the test to be SURE it truly is negative by pushing the test to the limits!! I can tell you without any doubts that my boy is negative because he's truly negative NOT because I carefully orchestrated the test to be sure he tested negative for my own gain. Was it scary? OF COURSE!! Even the most conscientious breeder is afraid of bad news, but we owe it to the dogs to be sure our boys are clear. As for the girls, we are in a huge quandary over that one...

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margelutz

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Reply with quote  #41 
 the limits!! I can tell you without any doubts that my boy is negative because he's truly negative NOT because I carefully orchestrated the test to be sure he tested negative for my own gain. Was it scary? OF COURSE!! Even the most conscientious breeder is afraid of bad news, but we owe it to the dogs to be sure our boys are clear. As for the girls, we are in a huge quandary over that one...

 

Teresa ,
My boy was also negative ,and i feed a lot of chicken :>)
If he had come back positive ,i would have taken him as being a positive :>) Iam not breeding Him ,hes over 4 now ,but i did it because i wanted to know
 
BUT!!! I think you need to speak with Geiger on that one :>)
 
Since he even told Gloria Cuthbert that with Her one boy it could be the diet ,SOOOOOOOOOOOOO And Chuck backed up Her story .
 
Who's right ? Who's wrong?
 Hell if i know :>)
 
I think Geiger needs to spell that out ,for everyone .
Not the health committee of the MCOA .But He himself ,if MCOA need to pay for Him to do that then so be it .
 
Seems to me we are all running around chasing our tails ?
 
And still there is no concrete answers ,
And yes ill stand by what i said .
 
A refund of some kind should be given to  a buyer that brought a pup with Cystinuria ..Specially if he was to be a show dog ??
And please don't tell me some don't make that kind of money .
 
I know of a breeder that takes the money from pups sold ,and banks it for two years ,in case he needs to refund for any health issues he has in His guarantee .
And He breeds very little ,So no he makes no large sums of money
 
Stop and do some math on some of these Litter being born ,
 
Some breed two bitches at one time ,some bitches produce them like 12 pups a piece . That 24 pups .!
 
At even 2 grand apiece that's 48,00 bucks .in my math anyway :>) or at 3 grand apiece  seems that would be like 72,00 bucks ? you throw in Stud breeding's  at 3 grand a piece
 
I'm sure its a tighty little sum???

So if you gave 1,000 back ,still leaves you with 24,000 or more :>)
 
I'm not saying that's a bad thing :>)
I'm just saying some breeders are not broke by breeding :>)
 
Hell why breed if your not going to make something out of it :>)
 
But when genetics fail ,don't cry when you should make things right either .
 
We all know breeding is a throw of the dyce :>)
Some you win and some you loose :>)
 
Should we still test YES! sgould  we test like every year or more if you are studding your Boys? YES!
 
I'M sure  each breeder, that has has C+ dogs ,out of their litters have had heartache over this Teresa :>(
 
Not only Jan   And I'm sure there will be more standing in Her shoes
 
So its up to them as breeders what they would do ,for their puppy buyers ?? Because of this Nasty genetic fault .I think if i was a buyer now ,id ask a breeder if they are going to cover Cystinuria in their contract ,if not id look else where .
 
Specially if it turned out to be a stone former
 
So many breeders brag on longevity in their lines .
Maybe some wont be able to do that any more
 
Because of Cystinuria ?? It truly is scary
 
No doubt about it ,so lets get busy on finding the cause ,so we can all rest easy ,and produce some great Mastiffs :>)
We tackled PRA We can tackle this also if every breeder did the testing ,and did it right .
 
And UPENN Did a bit of hurrying along with the results on this . :>)
And everyone gets on the same page ??
 
Marge
 
 
 
 
 
 
 



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Reply with quote  #42 

Good gosh Teresa, this was a good thread with great discussion and people really trying to discuss this like professionals and adults.  Why do you have to stand up for Jan on this thread?  Marge was not saying anything about Jan.  Can we please go back to the real issue which is what Monica started this thread to be, breeding and health.  Ridiculous already.

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Reply with quote  #43 
Quote:
It truly wasn't your fault !  But its not theirs either .


My opinion on this is if the pup was show quality the breeder should refund the difference from show to pet price if they charge a different price if not then no if someone paid the pet price. I say this because there is no positive testing as of yet. There is to much conflictinmg info. Many C+ dogs are not stone formers only a few are. So thats why I feel this way. I feel its very hard for a breeder to guarntee against something that the tests we have are not that great. Now if a breeder knowingly breeds this without care I think they should be nailed to the wall for it. I am sorry a positive is that and they can come up with every excuse in the world to justify it but I thinks its wrong and they know it is deep down. I bitch that produced it should never be breed again, same with her sons and daughter. The only way to be sure it to never breed them. I say this again as to what is posted on the UPENN site. I will not go by what a breeder says Dr G or anyone else siad because to me thats here say and cant be proven. So until the UPENN site is changed I will go by what they have listed there and that is a postitive is that and diet only controls the formation of stones. Diet is not the cause. So again until that site says differently thats what I will go by and not someone elses word or speculation!


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Reply with quote  #44 
Lorie,

What happens if a breeder's whole kennel is built around some key dogs that might test positive?

Do they wipe out their entire kennel? Or stonewall the testing process?

By not testing and claiming to know their lines better than any "unproven" test could indicate, they try to get around the problem and save their investment.

The moral issue, is whether we stay silent if we believe this stonewalling practice might be taking place, or speak out and suffer the consequences of being labelled as a muck-raker, or worse!



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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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Reply with quote  #45 
I think it is absolutely outrageous to expect a breeder to guarantee a puppy against Cystinuria.  We do not know enough about this disease and they way it manifests itself to really even make this a realistic expectations. 

As for financial compensation - with regard to ANY health issue -  unless someone is misled or lied to - when you are purchasing a living breathing animal - you never KNOW what is going to happen.  It is important for breeders to use the tools available to offer the best quality and healthiest possible puppies, but also important for those purchasing those puppies (especially those intended for showing/breeding) to be realistic in their expectations as well.  There has to be a happy medium, and honesty as top priority.

I personally have 2 dogs in my home that didn't pass OFA's.  They will be 8 and 6 years old within the next 2 months and at this point really have no issues with regard to quality of life.  I never sought any financial compensation from the breeder.  One is from 2 OFA excellent parents, and the other from an OFA Excellent father and an untested mother, but with OFA Excellent parents herself.  What else can ya do?  What else can you expect?

In my opinion, one of the promary responsibilities for those interested/involved in the breed are to do right by your dogs, your puppies and the folks that own them.

Heather




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Reply with quote  #46 
Quote:
What happens if a breeder's whole kennel is built around some key dogs that might test positive?

Do they wipe out their entire kennel? Or stonewall the testing process?




That would be very hard but I dont know unless put in that position but I would say research and try to track it and eliminate any you think is a potential problem. a kennel may have related dogs but most are related in different ways. try to track it as X linked and do the best you can. That is all one can do. No I dont think you should wipe out a kennel but you can research and do what you feel is best to eliminate it.

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Reply with quote  #47 
HI ,
I think a Refund should be made IF!! the pups was to be a show dog .
And he has been shown to be positive .

If a Pet quality, Dog came up Positive, then i think ,some kind of refund should also be in store ,Now should those that come back negative ,get a refund ?

I wouldn't say so , until he came back a positive .
Now if he was a stone former ,then a full refund , should be paid .

Maybe that would help in the surgery of the Dog anyway



Marge

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Reply with quote  #48 
Do they wipe out their entire kennel? Or stonewall the testing process?
 
Hi ,
Couldnt they just bring in a new Bitch??
To re start the breeding program??
 
Marg e

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Reply with quote  #49 
Quote:
Couldnt they just bring in a new Bitch??
To re start the breeding program??


What would you say to be the criteria for selection of a new bitch - to attempt to eradicate the instance of a disease like Cystinuria?

What would be the best way to start freash with something you choose as carefully as possible to minimize Cystinuria...

A bitch with a C- father?  Working within the ramifications of what is currently suspected - a bitch who not only meets the above criteria, but whose mother's father is negative for Cystinuria as well?

Heather


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steveoifer

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Reply with quote  #50 
Does inbreeding perpetuate and exacerbate this issue?

If so, should we outcross more to save the breed, or is it too late?

Testing for disease and not carriers of the disease can be tricky, all the more reason to test and re-test!

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For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
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