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I think a Refund should be made IF!! the pups was to be a show dog .
And he has been shown to be positive .

If a Pet quality, Dog came up Positive, then i think ,some kind of refund should also be in store ,Now should those that come back negative ,get a refund ?

I wouldn't say so , until he came back a positive .
Now if he was a stone former ,then a full refund , should be paid .



I think the breeder should do whatever s/he is able to do to help.  If that breeder feels a refund is appropriate or available, so be it.  If they can be instrumental for getting the word out and making strides for the cause - that's important too!  Or hosting some sort of fundraiser to help with surgery, etc. if they are able. 

My personal thought would also be that it's important and helpful to test as many dogs from that pedigree as possible and use the information in the best way possible to help other dogs.

It is my opinion that placing blame - in a disease that is so fragmented, is not appropriate under current circumstances.

Heather


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Reply with quote  #52 
Hi Heather :>)
 But I think we should start looking at Pedigrees,Maybe that are not so Inbred with C+ Dogs

Those pedigrees i look at recently ,show Dogs and Bitches through out the pedigree


On the top as well as the bottom , maybe we should look more to out crosses ??

We know we cant depend on a lot of testing now . As we haven't done it that long

As with Hips and elbows ,With that we can go back generations ?

But this is so new we got nothing


But i guess if i wanted to continue  breeding , id Start with a New Bitch .

That is not in my lines at all  i know that can be a bit edgy also .
Since they are all related one way or the other :>)


Unless we went out of the country for a Bitch puppy ??
But with that there are no gurantees  either


I guess if you want to stay the   game,you take a chance ????

Marge



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Reply with quote  #53 

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That is not in my lines at all  i know that can be a bit edgy also .
Since they are all related one way or the other :>)




I am not sure what you mean by this?

Heather

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Reply with quote  #54 
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If so, should we outcross more to save the breed, or is it too late?
 

Outcrossing only hides a problem But its still there it just doesnt pop up as offten but the problem is you end up spreading it until it is to late. Because people dont see it pop up but its still in the genes.

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Reply with quote  #55 
That is not in my lines at all  i know that can be a bit edgy also .
Since they are all related one way or the other :>)

 
HI ,
well i meant we are all tied in the pedigrees one way or another ? So we would never get clean lines ??
Marg e

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Reply with quote  #56 

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Good gosh Teresa, this was a good thread with great discussion and people really trying to discuss this like professionals and adults.  Why do you have to stand up for Jan on this thread?  Marge was not saying anything about Jan.  Can we please go back to the real issue which is what Monica started this thread to be, breeding and health.  Ridiculous already.

 

Natalie, I responded as I did because Marge asked what a breeder/buyer should do. Yes, I defended Jan in the process because it was a very real life example...not just some hypothetical BS. Furthermore, I also was making the point, although it appears you missed it, that Jan is an example of when NOT to breed which, as I do believe I remember, was the point of Monica's thread! AND, I do believe my post contained good back and forth about the breeding issue. So, you see my post was right on topic with real life events and decisions with real life breeders and buyers. Did I hit a nerve with you Natalie?

Marge, I know you just got an adorable new baby. Do you mind if I ask if you puppy was guaranteed against cystinuria or against it being a carrier (can't remember if it's a boy or girl right this second...not enough coffee yet)? If so, what kind of guarantee was made?

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Reply with quote  #57 
Outcrossing only hides a problem But its still there it just doesnt pop up as offten but the problem is you end up spreading it until it is to late. Because people do see it pop up but its still in the genes.

 

So we are doomed ?? :>(
 
Marg e



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Reply with quote  #58 
Marge, I know you just got an adorable new baby. Do you mind if I ask if you puppy was guaranteed against cystinuria or against it being a carrier (can't remember if it's a boy or girl right this second...not enough coffee yet)? If so, what kind of guarantee was made?

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Hi Teresa :>)
Yes i did get an adorable awesome , not so little Bitch :>)
 
And yes she is guaranteed ,and I'm positive that if a problem arise ,the breeder would handle it :>)
 
No i didn't ask if She would be guaranteed against Cystinuria :>) And both breeders did everything they could to
breed healthy Pups :>) as did Jan and others
 
 
Do i plan on breeding Her ? Yes !,and i will give a Guarantee on all Pups  if they happen to get Cystinuria .Just as in Hips and elbows .If she does throw a male with it , id have her fixed ask that all females be fixed ,and give $$ back on the males that were Positive . 
 
I mean most breeders do guarantee Hips and Elbows ?
So what would be the difference if its cystinuria ?
 
Maybe a good thing would be to put in a contract that if Cystinuria should arise ,all Bitches in the litter must be fixed ? And if one of the Bitches was having a litter .
 
All pups  should go on limited registration .
 
Teresa ;look  at it like this , Buyers brought a Show dog .
They paid and traveled to shows  to champion said dog .
 
Gave your kennel the pat on the back for it .
 
Now its a positive ! their dogs  future is crap ,breeders dogs are now crap .
 
But Breeder made 2000 bucks or more  on said show pup .
 
Owner paid all testing $$ All show $$$$ And is now stuck with a C+ Dog ,that MIGHT FORM STONES .
 
And then is stuck with either spending Money they cant afford to keep said dog going .
Or they put their Show pup down Or they keep on Expensive dog food ,hoping and praying, He will never show any stones !
 
And they will have him for a long life ?? But in the mean time ,Breeder  has no expense , no worries .
 
And can continue breeding , on maybe another line .
And is out no money ?????
 
Now does that seem fair ,your a breeder ?
 
To me it would be worth my reputation as a Good Breeder .
To give some if not all Monies back .
 
Its like getting a lemon car , Ill bet in the not so near future .
This is going to happen with Dogs also .
 
If someone has the bad luck of getting a Genetic night mare of a dog .  They can be sued , I swear i don't even know why this should be an argument :>)
 
Its only fair if you make a  defective Pup ,you pay for it or replace it some how
 
And you know what !!
Maybe a Small thing as I'm so sorry ,what can I do .
Would take care of it :>)
 
Marge
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Hopefully they will have a test by that time :>)

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Reply with quote  #59 
Yes, I do hope there is a test someday soon as well!

I'm not arguing the refund as much as giving my opinion on it. With hips/elbows we can do OFA/Pennhip so can make educated guesses on guarantees. Do I think it's fair I'm out money on Foxy? I don't think there's an issue with fair or not. It's a chance we take when we buying a living/breathing animal. Do I think it's fair Jan got hit with this disease in her litters? NO, but it's no one's fault either. Is it fair to blame her? NO...In this case, fair has nothing to do with it. Only fate is involved here and fate isn't always our friend!! With C+, we are in a real jam. If we could guarantee against EVERYTHING a dog could come up with, it would be wonderful, but that's impossible. When technology gets to that point, heck, we can be sure humans all are born without any genetic defects...Point being, breeders are not GODS and can't prevent everything. They can do their absolute best but to expect them to NEVER have issues arise is rather harsh. You may think breeders make tons of money, but in my experience, that is not the case. Remember, before you ever breed a litter, a good breeder will have fully health tested, shown the dog to championship, given it years of great food/vet care and all the other incidentals that go into a breeding dog (such as stud fees, shipping of semen, progesterone testing, SI/AI/CI, possible C-section etc). Some might make some of their money back, but a lot of that goes back into future generations. And, to reiterate my earlier message, C+ isn't like hips/elbows. It might not show up for years and then you could have 30-40 puppies out of a bitch if she has big litters. It's not like the pups out of a litter that can be tested for HD/ED at 2 years old...The breeder you referred to earlier keeps a stash for two years to cover his health guarantees. Could he keep a stash for 5 years of over $30,000?

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Reply with quote  #60 

Give me a break Teresa, you do not want to push me here on this board of did you hit a nerve.  No you did not hit a nerve, this wasn't the appropriate place to start defending people, just having a good discussion. 

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Reply with quote  #61 
I got a lemon once and the breeder told me to take a hike.  It sure makes you open your eyes to things that go on out there.  It's so important to stand behind your pups.  Every breeder might have a different opinion of what is right regarding refunds, but I think the important thing is to do your best to work with a puppy buyer if an issue comes up and make sure that person is happy, regardless of what that agreement might be.  Most people want to work out problems, especially when it comes to their dogs.

On a happier note, I worked with a breeder a while back that bent over backwards to do by right by her dogs.  It was really appreciated, because sometimes things just happen!!

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Reply with quote  #62 
I'm not arguing the refund as much as giving my opinion on it. With hips/elbows we can do OFA/Pennhip so can make educated guesses on guarantees. Do I think it's fair I'm out money on Foxy? I don't think there's an issue with fair or not. It's a chance we take when we buying a living/breathing animal. Do I think it's fair Jan got hit with this disease in her litters? NO, but it's no one's fault either. Is it fair to blame her? NO...
 
 
Ok Teresa
Let me say this again , This is not about Jan ,its about what a Breeder should try and do , Period  end of story .
 
I wonder tho how you would have felt if you would have Gotten a positive male ???
 
And how you would have felt dishing out ,600 a month to keep him going ? I don't even think you  would have found a friend to take Him ?? Like you did with Foxy
 
Unless you gave them the money to keep Him going ?
 
Or paid for the special food ?
This is my point  Its not about any one breeder . So get off that soap crying Box
 
I think with this getting so many Great Dogs now coming up positive ,a Breeder needs to think how to handle it .
 
How to  word their contracts ,how to protect  the buyers .
As well as the Buyers thinking on breeding the Pups if Cystinuria arises ???
 
Cause for now ,and it is all new to everyone
Breeders cant ,i don't feel just blow buyers off ???
 
And say well its not in my contract ?? You talk about Hips and OFA .
 
Well if your Pups don't pass OFA don't you refund some money ?
 
So what would be the difference here ??
 
Just because its no ones fault ,doesn't mean a breeder is still not responsible .does it???
 
I think in giving a refund would do a hell of a lot more for a breeder reputation ,than any thing else .
 
And hey if you dont need the money ,then dont take it :>)
 
And if you dont want to back up your pups .
Then dont have a contract ,period ,this way no one is owed anything .
 
 
Marg e
 

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Reply with quote  #63 
The breeder you referred to earlier keeps a stash for two years to cover his health guarantees. Could he keep a stash for 5 years of over $30,000?



Teresa ,
First of all ,i only meant positive Males ,since they would need the care ,if they should form stones .

As for the Breeder i got my Gal from he doesn't breed that often .

 But you can bet your Arss , he would do whatever necessary to help .
And id bet the house he would refund some moneys :>)

Now would i have to worry about that ? NO!
I brought a Bitch , But would i have to worry when i breed Her ? Yes!

Because id be responsible ,for those pups :>)

So would i put it in the contract yes ,i would ,Id also figure out
How to make sure of it does come down my lines .

How to make sure no Bitches were bred from that line .
Or Males .
How I don't know , but i sure will try :>)

As i said so many times ,If i had a Male that was positive ,and was a stone former .
Id have to put Him down ,i could not afford to keep Him going

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Reply with quote  #64 
 

On a happier note, I worked with a breeder a while back that bent over backwards to do by right by her dogs.  It was really appreciated, because sometimes things just happen!!

 
HI Jan :>)
And that's all a Breeder can do , is try to make it OK :>)
You got burned ,and you knew how it felt .
 
so you didn't want to be that kind of breeder :>)
I think at times ,sometimes a breeder forgets .
 
How it is to some people ,that these Dogs are like Peoples Kids .
 
And  the thought of ever loosing them ,before their time .
 
Is just to much to think about
 
Take Care
Marg e

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Reply with quote  #65 
Without knowing mode of inheritance or even how this disease is transmitted - I don't think you CAN guarantee anything Cystinuria related or should based on the statistics. 

To me - it's like saying - well, I would like a guarantee against my Mastiff getting hit by a car.  The breeder can assure you that the mom didn't get hit by a car, and the dad didn't get hit by a car - but is it really realistic that the puppy won't get hit by a car solely based on those two items? To me - Cystinuria is THAT ambiguous.

I think standing behind your puppies is an important aspect of breeding, and I think doing what is right when it comes down to it is likewise.

Marge - your puppy is guaranteed against Cystinuria, but realistically, she has absolutely no chance to get it at all?   Bitches are carriers - and have not been affected.

Heather

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And how you would have felt dishing out ,600 a month to keep him going ? I don't even think you  would have found a friend to take Him ?? Like you did with Foxy

 
Unless you gave them the money to keep Him going ?

 
Or paid for the special food ?


The only dogs affected by a C+ diagnosis that costs anything additional are those that form stones. 

Those folks would then most likely just have the dog re-routed with the corrective surgery and that would be the end of it? 

To be honest, from friends who have had this surgery in Mastiffs and other breeds, the surgery to do this sounds considerably less expensive than surgery for a torn cruciate, which is far more prevalent in Mastiffs than Cytinuria at this point in time!

What do you mean $600 a month to "keep him going"?  I would gather this to be the exception and not the rule, and only for dogs who wouldn't be good candidates for the surgery.  Again, you would have to have a stone former to begin with for this to even apply. 

What money would you have to give people to keep him going?  What special food are you talking about? 

Heather


 

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Reply with quote  #67 
Marge - your puppy is guaranteed against Cystinuria, but realistically, she has absolutely no chance to get it at all?   Bitches are carriers - and have not been affected.
HI :>)
No i never said that she was guranteed against it :>)
And yes your right  she could be a carrier or a positive ,

I don't think any lines can for sure say it is free of it .

We do test Hips right?  Sometimes  you still get a Dog that doesn't pass ,you really cant say a Dog will have no problems :>)

I think its the same with Cystinuria ,even tho a breeder tested .
Does not mean it wont have or pups wont have Cystinuria :>)

But i think it should still be guaranteed ,we do hips we do elbows we do heart and thyroid .All those have really no guarantee either :>)

Heather i feel this so far is the worst yet in genetic defects

And the  biggest cost to buyers ,if they form stones

I dont see any difference in this than i do in bad hips or elbows .
In being guranteed .

We dont know the mode of inhertence on Hips or elbow either ??

We just try and breed to a better hip score :>) So whats the difference ?

Marg e

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Reply with quote  #68 
Those folks would then most likely just have the dog re-routed with the corrective surgery and that would be the end of it? 
 
No Heather that would not be the end of that .
 
They can still form stones even after that surgery .
 
Thats where the 600.00 Pills come in ,and it could be more than that ,depends on the dogs weight .
 
Surgery will help pass the stones ,but the dog can still form them .
 
Marg e

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Reply with quote  #69 
What money would you have to give people to keep him going?  What special food are you talking about? 


Hi
It would be a low residue  food ,I would assume the paying for the pills ???
I'm sure the people that you know that had it done ,maybe he is still forming small stones ,

But he could very well start forming larger ones , Taking the theola pills
Would help him on not forming the stones period .
Some cook for their Dogs ,as to keep it a low protein ,and i assume salt ??

Some just do the Theola Pills ,and have gotten through with out any surgery .

Join the Cystinuria List ,you can learn a lot there ,and maybe get better concept of Cystinuria .

Boy Ya know with all these threads on Cystinuria ,here and  on Lindas list .

It seem we are still in the dark :>)

Marg e





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Reply with quote  #70 
but he  has been on Thiola for 65 months at a cost of $500 a month...so we have spent $32,500 on Thiola for him...this is why we still drive a 1994 pickup with over 200,000 miles on it!  Oh he is a Mastiff so he is on a relatively high dose.
HI
Ok Here is an owner ,that has a C+ Mastiff notice the cost .
for the pills over time .

So is this a fair thing to do to a buyer ????

And some go with out thier own meds to keep a dog going

Marg e

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Reply with quote  #71 

Marge, DID THEY HAVE THE SURGERY ON HIM?


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Reply with quote  #72 
I AM a member of the Canine Cystinuria list Marge.  SO I am privvy to the whole post from that owner of which you speak, and all of the previous and subsequent posts.

Thiola, is again for dogs that are stone formers, and from my understanding and reading -the options are Thiola OR the surgical procedure?  The special diet is yet ANOTHER alternative - however, not thought to be effective.

I think this is a pretty basic resource for understanding what happens when a dog is diagnosed with Cystinuria, and the ramifications for stone-formers.

http://www.caninecystinuria.com/Treatment.html

I am not debating the importance of this disease, or the fact that it impacts our beloved family members in a way that most Mastiff fanciers do not understand.  I completely agree with continued testing and research, with as many financial resources contributed to the cause as possible.

However, I do believe that some of the information presented here isn't as accurate as it could be - and I do think it is important to offer realistic points of view that are not emotionally charged.

Heather


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Reply with quote  #73 

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Give me a break Teresa, you do not want to push me here on this board of did you hit a nerve.  No you did not hit a nerve, this wasn't the appropriate place to start defending people, just having a good discussion. 

 
\
First of all Natalie, can you please clarify the first sentence because it makes no sense. I can't address what I can't figure out. Furthermore, why would I CARE if I push you on this board or anywhere else for that matter?

Second, Natalie, why are you getting your panties all in a wad if I use a real example of a real situation that answers the question that Monica posed? "When do you continue breeding and when do you stop". I think the Jan example was a very valid answer to that. Could it be that you and your friends have some skin in the game? Otherwise, why would you give a rats ass WHO I used as an example. Now, if I'd bashed her, I can see why it would be a negative thing, but it was NOT negative. It also answered Marge's question of what buyers think of the situation when something like this arises. It was a perfectly applicable answer to a very good conversation. You seem to be the one who has "issues", not me.

As for your question, Marge, about what if Foxy had been a boy. Pretty much the same thing would have happened. I would have had him neutered and let him live with my friends. I would have cautioned them on feeding the right diet (since not all C+ boys form stones, we just watch them until there's an issue). If he had become a stone former, I would have had the rerouting surgery done FOR THEM. Now, I hate to make this sound so anticlimatic, but from the people I KNOW that had boys that formed stones, without fail, all have been stabilized with the surgery. One even was kept symptom free with diet ONLY and no drugs. Yes, it's not the ideal thing to have to go through with your dog, but it doesn't ALWAYS have to be the worst case scenerio.

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Reply with quote  #74 
Marge, DID THEY HAVE THE SURGERY ON HIM?
NO !

She is trying so hard not to go that route
,Marg e

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Reply with quote  #75 
since not all C+ boys form stones,
 
I know this Teresa ,but if he was a stone former ???
 
I find this a bit disheartening ,on this stone forming thing .
 
Seems You and Heather take it so lightly ,as if its a very small percentage of dogs that do form stones
 
But if you or I was to have one ,i know it would be devastating ?? to all of us ?? At least i would hope so !
 
Marge

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