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Reply with quote  #1 
I don’t post a lot on this forum because I’m an AM owner so I usually just read and let it go at that; but I have to say that comparing this person who is crossing Great Pyrenees and EM’s to the AM is unfair. This person is not making any attempts to develop a new breed they are just crossing two dogs and selling puppies. There is a big difference between what they are doing and the 25 plus years of selective breeding that has gone into the background of the AM.

If the EM folks could for one minute be completely fair and unbiased; to look at the AM without an emotional knee jerk reaction you would see that there is a truly heart felt program going on here to create a new breed and we are well on the way to doing that.

I know you are all thinking but why not leave well enough alone? The EM is a wonderful breed why not just work to improve it rather than create a new breed. And you are right; the EM is a wonderful breed and you would all have a valid point, but then look at the number of recognized breeds that are out there in the world today; many of them with the Mastiff as their root breed. They all came from crossing two or more pure breeds and then selectively breeding to get the traits that were desired. Then you are insulted!!! What do you mean get the traits that are desired!!! What is there about my dog that is not desired!!!! How dare you say that!!!

Then there are the dogs that are showing up in shelters that need to be rescued because people are cranking out all these puppies. If you were going to be truly honest about that you would have to stop breeding EM’s as well and never own any dog that didn’t come from a shelter, until there were no more dogs in shelters. When you breed your EM you are adding to this problem. The more puppies that are added to this overcrowded dog holocaust the worst it is going to get. You can’t say with 100% certainty that none of your dogs would ever end up in a shelter. When that puppy goes out your front door there is no way that you could track each and every one of them for the rest of their lives to make sure that they don’t end up in a shelter. I don’t care how many contracts or applications you have people fill out to get a puppy….it happens. There are the folks that will lie threw their teeth to get what they want and unless you hire a private investigator to verify each and every application, you just have to take them at their word.

Then there are the dogs that bite people; you can’t say that just because a dog is a cross breed that it’s going to go batty and bite people. My next-door neighbor’s daughter was mauled when she was a baby by her aunt’s registered Cocker Spaniel. She has and will have to endure many years of reconstructive surgery to repair the damage that was done by a 35-pound dog.

I just picked up my local newspaper this morning and found these ads placed by people breeding EM’s in their backyard to sell for extra money. If you will go to http://search.chron.com/chronicle/search.do then do a search for Mastiff. You will find that there are 4 pages of them. These people just found a male dog by various means and they made puppies for money. They have no idea what they are doing or whether the traits of their female would be a good match for the male they choose. It would be my guess that these people are doing much more harm to your breed than the AM ever could. If you’re truly concerned about the welfare of your breed I would think that putting a stop to indiscriminate breeding would be job-one. Your energy would be much better spent here than chasing the AM.

I have two AM’s and I love them both with every fiber of my being. I have one of each “type” the lean athletic shepardy type (the fawn) and the more Mastiffy brindle. I think they are both quite beautiful and they are a very important part of my family.














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mariaruoto

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Reply with quote  #2 
I'd love answers to the following questions:
 
Do you know the history of the "AM"?
Who are the foundation dogs?
Is there any proof of the actual mix that started the "AM"? - "foundation stock" just doesn't cut it. 
Any health testing proof?
What is your definition of selective breeding (it doesn't mean only a handful of people can breed)? From the stock I see the "AM" breeders working with - there isn't much type consistancy or health testing as to be called selective.
What steps have been taken for you to be a recognized breed?


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Reply with quote  #3 
I tell you that there is 4 pages of ads in my local paper selling back yard bred mastiffs and you think your biggest problem is whether or not I can prove my dogs' heritages?

But if you are really interested I can direct your questions to the AMBC Executive Council and they will be able to provide you with all this information.
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mariaruoto

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Reply with quote  #4 
I'm addressing your points regarding the "AM" in this post. P

lease check out other the adoption/rescue threads regarding BYB ads. Also, many of these listing are for: Cane Corso, French Mastiff, Dogue de Bordeaux, Neopolitan/Cane Corso mix, CKC Mastiff pups (which means they could be ANYTHING),  etc...Also, many are repeat listings.

Please don't take an argumentative posture and try to turn my questions around on me.

I suppose the simple answer would be that - you can't answer these questions.

Thank you.

ps - I take accountability for my dogs. Yes, I do know where my puppies are and I am in regular contact with their owners. In fact, I'm going to visit one in Boston next month.

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clydeman

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Reply with quote  #5 

BettyR:  I can see the mastiff in your dogs.  It also looks like you take good care of them.  Good job.

 

What we have been hearing is that the start of the AM is very similar to these "Designer Breeders".  The original intent was to cross 2 different breeds to collect on a niche market.  It doesn't appear to me a noble endeavor like Bull Mastiffs where the breed was designed to save human lives.  It doesn't appear to be as noble as even the Australian Cattle Dog which was needed to help herd the cows.  It appears like the beginning was similar to a puppy mill trying to make a buck.  I am not against capitalism or trying to earn some money, however, I am against doing it irresponsibly.  Anatoly’s are not known for the best of temperaments.  You couple this with the size and power of the mastiffs and you can have problems. 

 

I don't think the people on this board consider you or your dogs the problem but rather the ridiculous claims from the AM breeders.  We have been on their web pages and seen "they drool less", "they are healthier", "No hip dysphasia", etc etc etc etc etc etc.  These are PR claims to sell dogs and they were focused at the EM Breed.  These people are saying what it takes to sell a dog (at extremely high prices) whether true or not.  There are exceptions to the rule but most of the people that got into the AM did so because of the claims from these breeders or planed on breeding themselves because of the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

 

Your AM's are probably great dogs.  They have to be they have a lot of their blood lines from the mastiffs.  Mastiffs are great dogs with great temperament.  They are loving and somewhat protective of their owners/property.  It's probably the mastiff in your AM that you like and admire.  The question is whether the Anatoly improved anything or made things worse.  Since the original breeding stock appeared to come from an auction, it is highly doubtful that they had the best intentions to improve anything but merely was looking for a market and used the unfounded claims to do so.

 

We are just trying to show the public that AM's are not bad dogs but rather shed the light on the matter and bebunk the claims and sales pitch.  In our eyes these designer dogs (including the AM) are nothing but a cross breeding system to make money.   Just because some good intentioned people like yourself, who got involved with the AM, don’t change the facts or the history or the original intent.  There is probably some good intentioned honest people that will get involved with these newest designer breeds mentioned on the other threads also but it don’t change the FACT that they are nothing but a cross breed equivalent to a mongrel and people are getting duped.  You obviously don’t agree with the new designer breeds according to your post but the EM community doesn’t see any difference between these designer breeds and the AM.

 

As I understand it, these designer dogs are going for thousands of dollars per dog.  Please use some common sense here and understand the motive behind these breeders.  It’s good ol American Capitalism at its worst.

 


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mariaruoto

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Reply with quote  #6 
This is page one of your link:

I suppose these people don't know that the dogs they "bred" are Dogue de Bordeaux's - or maybe they just think the work MASTIFF will help them sell more pups?!
Houston Chronicle Shopping
French Mastiff puppies For Sale, 4 left. Call 281-615-5820
11/14/2007
Houston Chronicle Shopping
Dogue de Bordeaux, / French Mastiff puppies. / $800 obo. 281-825-9587 /
11/11/2007
Kingwood Yard Sales
NOW TAKING DEPOSIT WE HAVE 2 FEMALES 3 MALE LEFT THEY WE BE READY ON DEC 6 THEY ARE 2 WEEKS OLD
11/10/2007
Houston Chronicle Shopping
NEOPOLITAN MASTIFF ANE CARSO Special Pups; wormed,born 10/07/07.
11/09/2007
Houston Chronicle Shopping
AKC English Mastiff puppies available Nov 28. De-wormed and vet check. Females $800-$1000 Males $1000-$1250 All Brindle. 409 751 4092 deposits
11/07/2007
Kingwood Yard Sales
Neapolitan mastiff female 4months old tail docked,ears cropped and up to date on shots.8326735195
11/05/2007
Houston Chronicle Shopping
English Mastiff ABSOLUTE Quality AKC pups "HUGE" $1000 281.342.8262
11/04/2007
Houston Chronicle Shopping
Neapolitan Mastiff pups, taking deposits now. mortonsneomastiffs.com All are reg.408 849 1505 /
11/04/2007
Conroe Yard Sales
CKC English Mastiff Pups They will be ready in 5 weeks.
11/01/2007
Tomball Garage Sales
CKC, fawn, Ready in 5 weeks. swest99@yahoo.com
11/01/2007
 
So a total of 2 listings on the first page are for AKC Mastiffs. The third one doesn't say one way or the other...this one should be thrown in jail as far as I'm concerned. She is letting these pups go at just over 6 weeks (if they were 2 weeks on the 10th and she is letting them go on Dec 6).
 

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Reply with quote  #7 
I understand your concerns but you have to understand that I am a 57-year-old woman who has been involved in the doggy world since the early 70’s. I began showing my German Shepard’s in 1972 and by the mid 80’s I became very disillusioned with what I was seeing happening in the world of purebred dogs.

I left the German Shepard world feeling that all was lost there and took up what I thought was the good fight to save the Rottweiler breed from suffering the same fate as the Shepard’s. Well you know how that turned out. Your chances of finding a Rottweiler these days that is not negatively affected by careless breeding is about as good as finding a hen with teeth.

I vowed in the mid 90’s to never purchase another purebred dog; all of my dogs came from the pound after that and I have had some wonderful dogs. Then by chance while at a little league baseball game I ran into a man with the most beautiful dog I had ever seen in my life. The dog was very well mannered and stood to let me pet him but he was at the same time aloof and extremely proud. I asked the man where he got his dog and he gave me Fredericka’s (Flying W) website and the rest is history.

My two dogs are the most well behaved dogs that I have ever had; they live to please me. When we are in public if they think there is something that might be a threat to my welfare they calmly place themselves between the perceived threat and me. What fool is going to reach across 2-150 pound dogs that are standing their ground? They don’t bark or growl they just stand there and dare this threat to advance. They are much more stable than any dog I’ve ever had and about 10 times more intelligent. There are times when I’m convinced that Fredericka must be doing human/dog genetic experiments in Ohio.

I truly believe that Fredericka and the rest of the breeders have the dog’s best interest at heart and I believe that with the care the breeders and Executive Council are taking to develop and preserve the breed that these wonderful dogs will be here for my grandchildren to enjoy.

By the way I also have two dogs that came from the local pound, I can't take them out in public, they try to bite, but they are good dogs for keeping coons out of my hen house.
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ShawnC

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Reply with quote  #8 
What you describe  as your dogs temperament is true Mastiff temperament. If that is the temperament you want,then why not get a Mastiff? You also said you left German Shepard  &  Rottie world, basically because you didn't like what was happening to those breed! We are trying to do what you did in German Shepards  &  Rotties and protect or breed from over population and breed mixing.



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mariaruoto

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Reply with quote  #9 

Quote:
I truly believe that Fredericka and the rest of the breeders have the dog’s best interest at heart and I believe that with the care the breeders and Executive Council are taking to develop and preserve the breed that these wonderful dogs will be here for my grandchildren to enjoy.



Why are claims of better health made, without any supporting documents?
Why aren't the foundation dogs known? Why isn't the Anatolian (if that is what was used) named?

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Reply with quote  #10 
Breed mixing was never a problem; you can’t register a mixed breed dog. As far as getting a mastiff, don’t think I didn’t look.

I contacted several breeders from the list I was given as in my area by the MCOA and asked for references, I didn’t get one response. I looked up people in the Houston area and contacted them looking for references I got the same response…nada.

I contacted Frederica and got a list of references as long as my arm and a lot of very friendly people who were more than happy to share their experiences with me. People gushing about how happy they were with their dogs and the amusing stories that went along with these sweet animals.

In my opinion it was a no-brainer.
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Reply with quote  #11 
mariaruoto

I'm sure I can get all that information for you if you really want it, but you have to remember that I don’t care if my dog is crossed with a jack rabbit as long as he or she is what is advertised and in my opinion I got that and more.
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mariaruoto

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Reply with quote  #12 
Quote:
I'm sure I can get all that information for you if you really want it, but you have to remember that I don’t care if my dog is crossed with a jack rabbit as long as he or she is what is advertised and in my opinion I got that and more. 


If you can get this information you would be one in a million - as many have tried before! I'd love to see what kind of response you get.

See if you can get the basics on the "AM" - health testing (which there should be documents proving all claims) details and actual pedigree/registration information on the "foundation stock" (there should also be documents proving any claims). Also, any proof of genetic testing that has been done to substantiate the 7/8 1/8 claim would be very interesting to see. 

I'm glad your happy with your dog. However, without any of the above documentation you really don't know that you got what was advertised.

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Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
I have one of each “type” the lean athletic shepardy type (the fawn) and the more Mastiffy brindle. I


A 'slender' looking AM and a Mastiffy one?  How many types of AM are there?  They look like two different breeds.  You can argue that there are no two Mastiffs that look alike but they are more uniform  (at least the better bred ones)

There is a lot of nonsense here and nothing anyone can say will change my mind.  I've been involved with the Mastiff since 1988 and in it for the long haul.  I care very deeply about the direction our breed is taking and want to see it there for others to enjoy in the future.  The last thing I wish to see is the Mastiff be a part of negative publicity. 

The cross-breeding of Mastiffs to other breeds destroys our breed...MY BREED!!! 

Thus far I haven't heard the true and relevant purpose of the AM, let alone the other mutt mixture!  I have no sympathy for these mixed breeds and I do realize that the price tag on these is $$$.

On another note....I've heard that some have chosen the AM to escape some health issues their Mastiffs have had.  How exactly are you escaping these issues when the AM is half Mastiff

This is  MASTIFF BOARD... put together to discuss the issues which affect our breed.  To gather people who have a common bond...to promote the Mastiff and to preserve it...not to bastardize it.

There have been many AM in shelters.   This has created a huge problem with Mastiff rescue. 

I can't help the way I feel.  I refuse to sit back and be silent.  I respect the fact that people do own these dogs...but please, don't try to substantiate breeding crosses to create a 'better' breed of dog...

Bes

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Reply with quote  #14 
mariaruoto-
Below is the advertisement that I was referring to and yes this is exactly what I got and in my opinion even more.

My dogs have only been to the vet for their yearly shots, I’ve had absolutely no heath problems with them at all. They are extremely strong, athletic and very full of life. We live in the “Big Thicket National Preserve” area of Texas and it is pretty wild country. They have taken their share of some pretty hard knocks and always come out on top. They are brave and extremely dedicated to their family.

Now if you were given the opportunity to have a dog with these qualities who’s heritage was in your mind questionable would you really turn it down?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

THE AMERICAN MASTIFF looks identical to the English mastiff in color, shape, size, etc. however, they have a much dryer mouth due to outcross early on in the history of the breed. They are very much the "gentle giant."

These wonderful dogs love children and are totally devoted to their family. wise, kind and gentle, they are patient and understanding, very loving with their own people. They are accepting and non-aggressive to your friends, visitors (and the postman), however if anyone threatens their family, especially the children, this dog will gladly give its life defending them.

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Reply with quote  #15 
Quote:
THE AMERICAN MASTIFF looks identical to the English mastiff in color, shape, size, etc. however, they have a much dryer mouth due to outcross early on in the history of the breed.


And THIS is reason enough for promote this mixed breed?

Quote:
These wonderful dogs love children and are totally devoted to their family. wise, kind and gentle, they are patient and understanding, very loving with their own people. They are accepting and non-aggressive to your friends, visitors (and the postman), however if anyone threatens their family, especially the children, this dog will gladly give its life defending them.


Can you explain to me what, of which is mentioned above, does NOT pertain to the Mastiff?


Again, outside of the 'drier' mouth (which I doubt your Mastiffy AM has), is the reason for this breed?

Where is the American Mastiff Standard?  What happened to the 'guarding' nature of the Anatolian?  Did it disappear?

If you can prove to me that this breed has a specific purpose that goes beyond the Mastiff....well, I guess I will listen.

Bes







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Reply with quote  #16 
gwenstone

I’m really sorry that you are so bitter; my purpose in coming to this board was not to make anyone angry but to try and help you understand that the AM is not just a cross between this dog and that. It is an ongoing effort to produce another breed, hopefully a stronger and healthier dog that will live longer.

I’m not trying to make you want one or say that my dog’s better than your dog I was just hoping that we could come to some common ground and stop butting heads. There is room here for all our dogs…mixed and pure bred. To say, “I have no sympathy for these mixed breeds and I do realize that the price tag on these is $$$.” Sounds extremely cold, I hope I’m taking this the wrong way.

I guess I’d better say it was nice to meet you and I’ll be going now.
Betty

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mariaruoto

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Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
mariaruoto-
Below is the advertisement that I was referring to and yes this is exactly what I got and in my opinion even more.

My dogs have only been to the vet for their yearly shots, I’ve had absolutely no heath problems with them at all. They are extremely strong, athletic and very full of life. We live in the “Big Thicket National Preserve” area of Texas and it is pretty wild country. They have taken their share of some pretty hard knocks and always come out on top. They are brave and extremely dedicated to their family.

Now if you were given the opportunity to have a dog with these qualities who’s heritage was in your mind questionable would you really turn it down?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

THE AMERICAN MASTIFF looks identical to the English mastiff in color, shape, size, etc. however, they have a much dryer mouth due to outcross early on in the history of the breed. They are very much the "gentle giant."

These wonderful dogs love children and are totally devoted to their family. wise, kind and gentle, they are patient and understanding, very loving with their own people. They are accepting and non-aggressive to your friends, visitors (and the postman), however if anyone threatens their family, especially the children, this dog will gladly give its life defending them. 


Did your "breeder" provide you with any health testing records to substantiate the health claims?

Why is the Mastiff even mentioned in the statement about the "AM"? Can you find another breed that compares itself to another breed? Why can't the "AM" stand on it's own? Why does it need to be exactly like the Mastiff?

Quote:
Now if you were given the opportunity to have a dog with these qualities who’s heritage was in your mind questionable would you really turn it down?

Why would I want to own a dog stemming from a person who is not willing to disclose the genetic foundation of their mix? Who cannot back up any of their claims with hard cold proof? Why would I trust someone who bought her breeding stock at auction?

Have you been able to find out any answers to the questions we discussed above?



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mariaruoto

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Reply with quote  #18 
Quote:
I’m really sorry that you are so bitter; my purpose in coming to this board was not to make anyone angry but to try and help you understand that the AM is not just a cross between this dog and that. It is an ongoing effort to produce another breed, hopefully a stronger and healthier dog that will live longer.


What health testing is being done to produce better health?
What effort has been made to try to be recognized by the AKC or enter the FSS (according to their standards, the "AM" would not be let in)?

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Reply with quote  #19 
"There have been many AM in shelters.   This has created a huge problem with Mastiff rescue. "

Now YOU are the one who has to prove something.  "Gwenstone" please prove the above statement.  I peruse the rescue lists.  Not one rescue could  give me any information regarding an AM from the Flying W line.
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mariaruoto

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Reply with quote  #20 

Barb - I know several "AMs" have passed thru GLMR.

**edited to add**

Mastiff rescue gets called for "AM's" in shelters or surrenders, since "AMs" do not have a rescue. Why isn't there an "AM" rescue? And, please, don't tell me it's because "AM" breeders take back any dog for any reason - b/c as we know from previous posts - that is not the case.

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Reply with quote  #21 
Barb...

http://mastiff.org/faq/ammastiff.mv

I am sure there are a number of Rescue volunteers on this board who are more than willing to chime in.

Do you have Mastiffs Barb?

BTW, I need to substantiate nothing Barb.  The Mastiff world is quite small. 


Bes
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redheads

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I wasnt going to post on this topic,since it always goes in circles,no REAL answers are given,and it really is an agree to disagree thing.AMs ARE showing up in shelters!!I have a friend in my dog club whom breeds Anatolians,and can attest to their health problems and temperment(and is as against this mix as EM breeders).When a new breed is developed,it is for a particular purpose.I DO NOT SEE a purpose for this breed.Dry mouth,that is a reason,please!!There are other dry mouth breeds,are there not?Better health?/Are ya friggin kiddn me?Both breeds have equal health problems!!We all love our dogs,regardless of what they are,or where they have come from.This is not in question.I dont question that these breeders of Ams do love their dogs,and are responsible for them(I hope).BUT,the breeding programs do not appear to be based of facts.All anyone is asking for is a REASON WHY?Why not call them what they are,an Anatolian Mastiff.Why only focus on the Mastiff in the mix??Why not focus on the Anatolian,too.If you are PROUD of this breed,be upfront and honest!Dont hide behind the Mastiff name.This board consists of EM lovers and breeders.Can we not be PROUD of what we live for,our passion,without being called an AM racist?In regards to unethical,BYBs of Mastiffs...What in the world makes ya think the EM community supports that?Well,Whatever.Your right ,EM lovers are wrong.How dare we care about the future and purity of OUR breed,how dare we care about this noble breed,how dare we worry about OUR dogs on ban lists due to the ridiculous crosses.How dare we?? 

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Highlander

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Reply with quote  #23 
I picked up an one of the mixes and was bit by the damn thing. Needless, to say, it is dead.

We brought it home, put our kids up and let him wander the house, he was here for 2 days. I got up one morning to let it out, put it's bowl down, when he was done eating and I went to get the bowl. He got me. He was fine for the first 2 days. I have had many Mastiffs in rescue come through my house and NOT ONE ever tried to anything.

You are messing with 2 different types of Working Dogs and putting 2 different temperaments and traits together. They are DANGEROUS and giving my breed THE MASTIFF a bad name. They should never have been bred. They are a genetic mess. Contact Kim Wilson at FORM and ask about her rescued Mixed Breed aka AM. They will NEVER be recognized by the AKC not if the The Mastiff World has anything to do with it.



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redheads

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Reply with quote  #24 

I checked out the AM breeder whom "developed" the breed.I could not find pedigree information on the original EMS whom were crossed?I do see they are crossing my beloved Gypsy horses with ponies and calling them "Gypsy ponies",whatever!!Apparently,they like to "develop" all kinds of new breeds.There are crosses allover the sight!!Does anyone know for sure they were auction dogs?That would truly be disgusting.I would love to know the truth?

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Highlander

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They are crossing the Gypsy Vanner (my dream horse) with Ponies.... These people are profiteers....
 
http://www.irishcobireland.com/?gclid=CNrF9-n73Y8CFR-YWAod7VN77g

http://images.google.com/images?q=gypsy+vanner&hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=images&ct=title

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Steph
"The superior man is modest in his speech but excels in his actions" Confucius
"Leadership is based on inspiration, not domination; on cooperation not intimidation. - William Arthur Wood

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