toadhall
Registered: 06/15/07
Posts: 870
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Reply with quote | #76 |
The idea of phasic diets originated in . . . poultry !!! (Ah, Michelle the Animal Science nutritionist that she is - says Rick !!!)
In order to grow bigger 'broiler' chickens faster, breeding programs sought to have faster maturing birds with a higher proportion of breast meat . . . and using a strict breeding protocol it was possible to have a marketable bird in a mere 6 weeks from hatching. The problem was that the muscle and weight gain outstripped the ability of the legs and pelvis to support them, and they got severe "spraddle" and inability to stand, eat and drink. Chickens being cannibals picked on the spraddled birds ! Heart disease and heart failure was rampant in the juvenile birds since their rapidly growing muscle and body mass demanded a higher cardiac output!The first correction was to only breed these hybrid birds as F1 crosses ! Neither parent breed had the rapid weight, spraddle (leg) problems or heart failure ! And the F1 "chicks" went to slaughter before they got big enough to have the leg or heart problems as adults ! So every generation of such high growth rate hybrid chicks is a new F1 generation !!! Secondly, it was reasoned that a "phasic diet" with initial high protein (starter ration), then reduced protein (maintenance) to slow muscle mass and growth (allowing the legs and hips to 'catch up in strength and maturity !) followed finally by a high protein food (finishing ration) fuelling the rapid muscle and high quality meat growth. The genes determined the ultimate weight and height, but the nutrition controlled the rate of 'getting there' !!! It worked ! Reduced risk of spraddle and other leg problems in juveniles. More 'finished' birds for every chick started ! And even the heart was allowed to grow to maturity before the muscle growth demands. Fewer heart failure losses condemned by Food Inspection at slaughter for ascites. So while Goldens are "bird" dogs . . . this attempted manipulation of osteochondral growth in Golden retriever puppies (by dietary means) to reduce hip dysplasia . . . really DID originate with "the birds" !! See "Special Symposium, Osteochondrosis: How to identify and treat its manifestations in dogs" by Steven M. Fox, MS, DVM and Alexander M. Walker, BVSc, MACVSc, in Veterinary Medicine (a peer-reviewed journal), Feb. 1993, pp 116-153. On page 121 it says, "the etiology of OCD is multifactorial. The most consistent finding in experimental and clinical studies incriminates rapid growth and weight gain. Most dogs affected with [OCD] are of medium to large size. And male dogs, which generally grow faster than female dogs, are affected twice as often as females. The relationship between nutrition, hormonal disturbances, and genetic factors for rapid growth and disturbances of endochondral osteogenesis suggests a metabolic origin...Dietary factors incriminated in OCD are high-energy, high-protein diets, excessive intake of calcium and phosphorus, and imbalances of calcium, phosphorus, and vitamin D. Excessive intake of nutrients accelerates growth and induces hormonal disturbances. In an experimental study in Great Dane puppies, free-choice feeding resulted in increased growth and multiple skeletal abnormalities. The high-protein, high-carbohydrate diet accelerated both growth and weight gain, and excessive calcium intake caused a persistently high level of calcitonin...Regardless of the specific nutrients involved, there is general agreement that the incidence and severity of OCD can be substantially reduced by normalizing the diet and slowing the rate of growth and weight gain." (Several studies were cited) And from "Effects of limited food consumption on the incidence of hip dysplasia in growing dogs", by RD Kealy et al., in JAVMA, Vol. 201, No. 6, Sept. 15, 1992 (pp 857-863), "The first report of a correlation of early rapid growth and weight gain to severity of CHD was published in 1964...In a study of Gread Danes, it was shown that excessive intake of food accelerated growth thereby contributing to the development of hip dysplasia. In a study of 31 dogs...with a high parental frequency of hip dysplasia, it was found that CHD was more frequent, developed earlier, and became more severe in dogs with rapid weight gain caused by increased caloric intake, compared with dogs with low weight gain because of restricted feeding." And in the discussion of this study, "On the basis of our findings in the long-term study reported here, limited food intake has a beneficial effect on development of the hip joints in growing and adolescent dogs. Labrador Retrievers fed 25% less food than those fed ad libitum had less hip joint laxity when they were 30 weeks old than their ad-libitum-fed counterparts. Furthermore, by maintaining the dogs on the same feeding regimen until they were 2 years old, this beneficial effect was still present at that age, as demonstrated by the significantly lower frequency of hip dysplasia in the limit-fed dogs. Our findings confirm what has been suggested in previous studies that used fewer dogs, but that included Labrador Retrievers, Golden Retrievers, and German Shepherd Dogs." Quite frankly, I'm puzzled by the fact that vets and PhD's keep asking me for proof that should be readily available to them. I had to e-mail this same info to the vet over on the PetCare Nutrition board here on AOL. My reading (and as a lay person, it's not as easy for me to get my hands on this stuff as it should be for a vet ) plus the advice of my veterinarian and respected breeders who have few orthopedic problems in their lines, has convinced me that puppy foods are not a good idea for large and giant breeds. So, I stand by my statement. PS-JAVMA is the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Assoc.
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Karen Dyer
New Zealand
http://mastiffnut.tripod.com/
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| Loading... | | | steveoifer
Registered: 08/24/06
Posts: 7,813
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Reply with quote | #77 |
What statement?
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For the betterment of the breed
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon |
| Loading... | | | toadhall
Registered: 06/15/07
Posts: 870
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Reply with quote | #78 |
Quote: The relationship between nutrition, hormonal disturbances, and genetic factors for rapid growth and disturbances of endochondral osteogenesis suggests a metabolic origin...Dietary factors incriminated in OCD are high-energy, high-protein diets, excessive intake of calcium and phosphorus, and imbalances of calcium, phosphorus, and vitamin D. Excessive intake of nutrients accelerates growth and induces hormonal disturbances.
My thoughts are that a good start to reducing HD would be to pro-actively eliminate some of the 'metabolic' factors.
Normalising the diet is not only better for HD & ED but also for the heart and hormone health.
That could be as simple as feeding your puppies 20% protein through fast growth periods and giving ester vit c....so as a breeder why wouldn't you do this????? If you still get high levels of dysplasia after this then of course eliminate the dogs concerned from breeding programmes.
The jury is out on cystinuria for me still..but similarly, like the initial hysteria on hip and elbow dysplasia...more studies need to be done. There are indications that there are metabolic dietry factors involved there as well.
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Karen Dyer
New Zealand
http://mastiffnut.tripod.com/
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| Loading... | | | steveoifer
Registered: 08/24/06
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Reply with quote | #79 |
Quote: There are indications that there are metabolic dietry factors involved there as well.
If you've read what I've posted, I have stated this a number of times.
Diet, environment, genetic. Those are three contributing factors to HD, but genetic factors cannot be eliminated by changing diet, or environment.
__________________
For the betterment of the breed
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon |
| Loading... | | | toadhall
Registered: 06/15/07
Posts: 870
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Reply with quote | #80 |
Quote: Those are three contributing factors to HD, but genetic factors cannot be eliminated by changing diet, or environment
who knows Steve, they can't find a gene..so you really can't test that hypothesis..
....what you can test is if you can produce 6 or 8 generations of HD free, structurally sound dogs on a protein step down diet and vit c ...
if you can... then its really a non issue in my opinion.
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Karen Dyer
New Zealand
http://mastiffnut.tripod.com/
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| Loading... | | | steveoifer
Registered: 08/24/06
Posts: 7,813
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Reply with quote | #81 |
You can't scientifically test those dogs in your example, because there are no valid parameters pre and post in that breeding method.
It's like rain dancing! When you finally get rain, you believe your dancing worked!
Genetic HD is not tentative, or assumed and therefore it is not hypothetical.
We know that HD drops, in controlled studies, through selective breedings to HD free individuals. This proves a genetic component is present, even though it has not been identified.
__________________
For the betterment of the breed
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon |
| Loading... | | | toadhall
Registered: 06/15/07
Posts: 870
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Reply with quote | #82 |
Quote: You can't scientifically test those dogs in your example, because there are no valid parameters pre and post in that breeding method.
It's like rain dancing! When you finally get rain, you believe your dancing worked!
Steve I am not a scientist.. but I have hip & elbow scored my mastiffs and will continue to do so.
The first litter I bred, 3 of the 4 pups have been scored and have fabulous hips and elbows. Lola had a total of 2 hips, Teddy a total of 3 hips and Shayla a total of 4 hips and all had 00 elbows. In USA terms thats grade 'excellent'
I put them on 20% protein from 8 weeks of age through to 14 mths and gave them Ester C some of the time. I didn't restrict their exercise because I personally believe they need equally good muscle tone to support their bone structure. Now I don't know scientifically if this has made a difference..except all this litter have better scores than either of their parents. Call it raindancing if you like..but all breeding must be raindancing then.
Quote: We know that HD drops, in controlled studies, through selective breedings to HD free individuals. This proves a genetic component is present, even though it has not been identified
Maybe..were the metabolic factors controlled? If they were fed the same thing that caused it before and then after would give you the same results.
The relationship between nutrition, hormonal disturbances, and genetic factors for rapid growth and disturbances of endochondral osteogenesis suggests a metabolic origin...Dietary factors incriminated in OCD are high-energy, high-protein diets, excessive intake of calcium and phosphorus, and imbalances of calcium, phosphorus, and vitamin D. Excessive intake of nutrients accelerates growth and induces hormonal disturbances.
The genetic factor for rapid growth is what is being implicated.
Based on the information we have I don't think there will ever be a DNA test for HD.
Mastiffs are notorious for fast growth, especially the large males. Should we eliminate all fast growers from the gene pool then?
Or just control fast growth..which is something we can do and has the same results as culling the gene pool?
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Karen Dyer
New Zealand
http://mastiffnut.tripod.com/
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| Loading... | | | steveoifer
Registered: 08/24/06
Posts: 7,813
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Reply with quote | #83 |
Karen,
You're treating a potential symptom, not the direct cause of the issue!
It's a backwards attempt at masking an underlying problem.
Were all the pups in the litter also tested? Is there a history of HD in the lines?
If you don't know these answers, or only screened one pup, your findings are not conclusive, and only adds to the anecdotal pile of urban myths already flooding the docket!
This is not to suggest that you don't try any method that you "believe" may inhibit the onset of HD, but your approach is not scientific and won't "cure" HD!
A genetic factor for rapid growth, is also not a primary cause of HD, it only adds to the problem! Otherwise, every fast growing dog would get HD! Why do greyounds have such a low incidence of HD? They certainly have a faster growth rate than Bulldogs, or pugs! http://www.offa.org/hipstatbreed.html
It's because of genetics!
__________________
For the betterment of the breed
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon |
| Loading... | | | EXCMastiffs
Registered: 08/28/06
Posts: 2,049
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Reply with quote | #84 |
http://www.mastiff.org/health/cystine.htm
Cystinuria is a serious, potentially life threatening problem that affects the bladder, kidneys and urinary tract system and it has been found in mastiffs. Cystine stones can form in the urinary system of both males and females. This is particularly serious for males because of their anatomy. Treating a dog with Cystinuria for other types of stones can be deadly! Supplementing with acidifiers such as vitamin C can cause stones to form in Cystinuric mastiffs - please test BEFORE supplementing.
* This being important to anyone reading this thread, because using vitamin c can be detrimental in other facets of Mastiff growth! Is this a chicken/egg situation?
Heather
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Excelsior Mastiffs
http://www.excelsiormastiffs.com |
| Loading... | | | toadhall
Registered: 06/15/07
Posts: 870
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Reply with quote | #85 |
Karen,
Quote: You're treating a potential symptom, not the direct cause of the issue!
It's a backwards attempt at masking an underlying problem.
Were all the pups in the litter also tested? Is there a history of HD in the lines?
If you don't know these answers, or only screened one pup, your findings are not conclusive, and only adds to the anecdotal pile of urban myths already flooding the docket!
This is not to suggest that you don't try any method that you "believe" may inhibit the onset of HD, but your approach is not scientific and won't "cure" HD!
You obviously didn't read my post properly.
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Karen Dyer
New Zealand
http://mastiffnut.tripod.com/
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| Loading... | | | toadhall
Registered: 06/15/07
Posts: 870
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Reply with quote | #86 |
Heather,
ascorbic acid (vitC) is acidic..but I believe Ester C is OK.
Does acidic vit c affect pos readings?
Quote:
because using vitamin c can be detrimental in other facets of Mastiff growth!
and I am not sure what you mean here..can you expand on this? cheers
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Karen Dyer
New Zealand
http://mastiffnut.tripod.com/
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| Loading... | | | EXCMastiffs
Registered: 08/28/06
Posts: 2,049
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Reply with quote | #87 |
Quote: ascorbic acid (vitC) is acidic..but I believe Ester C is OK.
Does acidic vit c affect pos readings?
I don't know enough about Cystinuria to know? Perhaps someone else has the answer?
Quote: Quote:
because using vitamin c can be detrimental in other facets of Mastiff growth!
and I am not sure what you mean here..can you expand on this? cheers
What I meant was - you think you are doing something to benefit your dog by giving Vitamin C, but if your dog has Cystinuria you might unknowingly be doing more harm than good. Heather
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Excelsior Mastiffs
http://www.excelsiormastiffs.com |
| Loading... | | | steveoifer
Registered: 08/24/06
Posts: 7,813
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Reply with quote | #88 |
Karen,
I was referring to the use of generational sibling profiles, which rarely get tested to validate free and clear hips etc.
One litter doesn't prove a thing, nor does it reflect initial genetic causes.
__________________
For the betterment of the breed
"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon |
| Loading... | | | MCF
Registered: 12/07/06
Posts: 434
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