Register  |   |   |  Calendar  |  New Posts  | Chat
 
 
 


Reply
 
Author Comment
 
goldleaf

Avatar / Picture

Registered: 04/25/06
Posts: 8,054
Reply with quote  #1 
Hi,
Is it possible to xray a young puppy, say three months, and be able to tell how their hips may turn out as an adult?  I'm familiar with the two years olds, but was wondering about the younger ones.  Thanks!

__________________
steveoifer

Avatar / Picture

Registered: 08/24/06
Posts: 9,228
Reply with quote  #2 

Hip Dysplasia Possible in Mastiff Pup

Q: Female Mastiff, 5 months old. Two weeks ago she started doing "the walk" ...back legs close together, difficulty rising from laying position. Some hopping. I know the walk.

The gate into the barn area had been left open by the kids. The goats were out and our older mastiff goes literally 'nutso' when he has a chance to chase the goats. The puppy was in on the crazyness... and I believe she got knocked around by the older mastiff possibly running over her or running into her. I didnt see the action, although I did rescue her from the barn area when I realized what was going on. This of course is my preferred reasoning for her new walk, although hip dysplasia is seriously bothering my questioning area of the brain...!!

From that date to present, we are doing the bunny hop occasionally and the legs close together walk. She seems to be getting somewhat better as the weeks go on, although this 'bothers' me greatly....those words of 'hip dysplasia' pop up. Yesterday a visitor over here, knowing nothing of the previous weeks rough play, said that dog has 'hip dysplasia'. The bunny hop... This visitor also did not know she was a puppy either...

1. Assuming she was injured a few weeks ago, what is the standard healing period of a growing puppy with some kind of back end injury?  

2. I dont want to run the gamete with unnecessary x-rays so your knowledge will help me in knowing how long to expect healing or take a look at possible hip displasia. 

3. Is it possible for a pup this age to show clinical signs of hip dysplasia?  

4. What can I do for her?  

5. Is walking and training safe to do with her while she shows these signs of back leg problems i.e. teaching sit and heel. She is sitting off balance and rarely straight on her back feet.

Thank You

A: Yankee-

It is definitely possible for a five month old puppy to have clinical signs of hip dysplasia. When clinical signs are present, it is almost always possible to diagnose hip dysplasia from X-rays, if it is the cause of the signs. This would be a good age to get a diagnosis, if you would consider reconstructive surgery of the hip joint (triple pelvic osteotomy), a procedure that must be done while the puppy is still growing.  It is also possible that the clinical signs could be due to another problem, such as a strain or sprain of one of the joints in the leg, a pelvic injury or a back injury. Other problems, such as osteochondrosis, sometimes cause lameness in one or both rear legs as well.

Puppies with hip dysplasia often have more discomfort at some times than at other times. There can be periods of soreness and then apparent recovery even though the disorder is present the whole time. Recurrences of the soreness are common, though.  It is a good idea to consider X-rays if you see a pattern of intermittent lameness in a young dog.

Strains and sprains usually heal within two to three weeks. Back injuries can take a very long time to heal, or may not ever heal completely. At some point, it may become necessary to try to differentiate between hip dysplasia and a back injury. If back problems are present, neurologic deficits are more likely to be visible, with signs such as dragging the toes or problems with placement of the feet occurring. It is often possible to tell if a neurologic injury is present through a physical exam but it doesn't rule out a problem with hip dysplasia being present at the same time.

It may be helpful to use glucosamine and chondroitin at this age to try to limit the inflammation and provide the necessary nutrients for joint repair. Pain relief can be useful. I still like aspirin as first choice for puppies with hip dysplasia but it can be irritating to their digestive tract.  Weight control is very important in limiting the progression of hip dysplasia. If the puppy is overweight at all, a diet may help more than anything else.

I think that moderate exercise is not likely to cause additional problems and may help due to increases in muscle strength and possibly joint mobility. Heavy exercise will increase joint inflammation and could potentially make the dysplasia worse. Sitting can be pretty hard on puppies with hip dysplasia and if pain is observed, or if the puppy shows obvious reluctance to sit, it would be best not to push the issue. Teaching the puppy to heel should be no problem.

It really would be best to have X-rays taken to see if hip dysplasia is present, to assess how bad it is, if it is present and to plan what to do for the puppy. This is especially true if it is possible to consider surgery such as the triple pelvic osteotomy. If you know that surgery is out of the question, then it isn't nearly as important to have the X-rays because medical therapy, weight control and restricting exercise to moderate activity will have to be plan.

Hope this helps some.

Mike Richards, DVM   



Read more: Hip Dysplasia in Dogs - VetInfo


__________________
For the betterment of the breed

"Above all, a uniform type should be aimed at by breeders and uniformity of type can only exist in a proportionate ratio in the purity and distinctiveness in any breed"!.........M. Moore
"If breeds did not adhere to a specific shape, form, and colour range, or if breeders disregarded this blueprint, the breed would degenerate to the point that it would hardly resemble the breed at all. Selective breeding does not just create breeds- it preserves them as well." Breeding purebred dogs inherently means accepting limitations on your freedom to just breed anything...Catherine McMillan
" A reinforced consolidation of the American and British standards could be the basis for restoring our breed to the gladiatorial glory of its ancient past, in capability if not in usage".....Norman Howard Carp-Gordon
"I can live with doubt, or not knowing, rather than to have answers that might be wrong"...Richard Feynman
goldleaf

Avatar / Picture

Registered: 04/25/06
Posts: 8,054
Reply with quote  #3 
This is an xray of a 10 week old puppy.  The vet is saying that the puppy is sublux.  This is not my vet, but a puppy buyer's vet that I am not familiar with.  A radiologist is going to check this xray, but has not yet, so no report is available at the moment.

I have never xrayed a young pup like this, so I am not familiar with what the hips actually look like at this age.  Does anyone have any experience they can pass along?  I would like to be able to forward the puppy buyer as much information as possible regarding this x ray from other mastiff breeders.  Thank you!





__________________
Comstock

Registered: 08/27/06
Posts: 851
Reply with quote  #4 
Hi Jann,

I can't say about 10-week old hip x-rays, but it appears the pup wasn't positioned evenly with the left side being higher than the right.  Any reason they didn't do PENNHip on this young a pup?  I have had 10 month old males misread by vets as subluxed on one side and go on to OFA as FAIR as adults.

__________________
Caroline Tobin
Comstock Mastiffs
http://www.comstockmastiffs.net
Highlander

Avatar / Picture

Registered: 08/12/07
Posts: 5,206
Reply with quote  #5 
Those hips are tight for a 10 week old puppy, besides what the "F" is the Vet doing xraying a 10 week old. They should not be xrayed according to PennHip until 16 weeks. (copied from PennHip PennHIP incorporates a new method for evaluating the integrity of the canine hip. It is accurate in puppies as young as 16 weeks of age).

Puppies are loose at 10 weeks, and according to my Vet who is certified in OFA and PennHip. If the puppy is limping look at Pano...If soon enough in the Pano, you can Xray the leg and an idiot can see the Pano.


__________________
Steph
"The superior man is modest in his speech but excels in his actions" Confucius
"Leadership is based on inspiration, not domination; on cooperation not intimidation. - William Arthur Wood

This post may not be forwarded, copied, transmitted, or reprinted without the permission of the sender
goldleaf

Avatar / Picture

Registered: 04/25/06
Posts: 8,054
Reply with quote  #6 
Damned vet!!  Her new owners took her to an orthopedic doc after their vet scared them half to death and he said everything looked beautiful.  Thanks for the input guys!

__________________
Kimberly

Avatar / Picture

Registered: 09/16/06
Posts: 1,082
Reply with quote  #7 
Also, to help ease your and the puppy owner's mind, Justice was diagnosed at 7 months with HD.  Freaked me out to no end, vet wasn't one familiar with large breeds or someone who even x-rayed often.

She OFA'ed at 2 years as excellent.  Turns out, sometimes a pull is just a pull and not HD.  Go figure

http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1385183#animal

__________________
Kimberly Hutchison
Maid, Cook & Slave to Adora & Justice

Dorothy: How can you talk if you haven't got a brain?
Scarecrow: I don't know... But some people without brains do an awful lot of talking... don't they?

"I expect to pass through this world but once. Any good thing, therefore, that I can do or any kindness I can show to any fellow human being let me do it now. Let me not defer nor neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again."
Stephen Grellet, 1773-1855
AbellioMastiffs

Avatar / Picture

Registered: 12/20/06
Posts: 922
Reply with quote  #8 

Well, at least, your puppy buyer contacted you to discuss this!

One of my puppy buyer brought their puppy to the vet for a limp at 19.5 weeks old.  They x-rayed the puppy and declared him severely dysplastic.  The vet told them that they were lucky because they were just in the right time range to have juvenile pubic symphyodesis (word??) performed on their puppy – which has to be performed before 20 weeks of age.

They did the surgery on the puppy and burned his pelvis growth plate.

The puppy owner called me the next morning to tell me all of this (because, the vet was so much in a hurry the day before)… I asked for the x-rays, sent them to OFA and they declared him excellent for a Mastiff puppy of this age…… sigh…….


__________________
Annie
EyotaMastiffs

Avatar / Picture

Registered: 08/02/10
Posts: 38
Reply with quote  #9 
And people wonder why I despise most vets.

It's crazy, the things I hear recommended, done on puppies because a cautious or scared puppy owner ran to the vet, and the vet escalates it into some life threatening disaster that needs to be averted immediately. I've heard way too much of this lately.

__________________
Tammy Kinkade
Eyota Mastiffs
4thedogs

Registered: 03/25/10
Posts: 792
Reply with quote  #10 

Quote:

Well, at least, your puppy buyer contacted you to discuss this!

One of my puppy buyer brought their puppy to the vet for a limp at 19.5 weeks old.  They x-rayed the puppy and declared him severely dysplastic.  The vet told them that they were lucky because they were just in the right time range to have juvenile pubic symphyodesis (word??) performed on their puppy – which has to be performed before 20 weeks of age.

They did the surgery on the puppy and burned his pelvis growth plate.

The puppy owner called me the next morning to tell me all of this (because, the vet was so much in a hurry the day before)… I asked for the x-rays, sent them to OFA and they declared him excellent for a Mastiff puppy of this age…… sigh…….


Annnie, I have a clause in my completely anal retentive contract ;-) that no alterations of any kind, including orthopedic can be made to the dog/bitch (limited of full) before 24 months of age and consultation with me 4 this very reason.

Let me know if you want me to send you a copy~

Jann, glad this lil gal is okay :-)))


__________________
Monica Coyle
Harmony Mastiffs
http://www.harmonymastiffs.com
4thedogs

Registered: 03/25/10
Posts: 792
Reply with quote  #11 
Steph, why should they not be exrayed b/f 16 weeks?  What if you wanted to check out hips at 8 weeks before they go home..  I wouldn't want to put an 8 week old pup under for Penn Hip, but what about a certified OFA vet doing an exray?  


__________________
Monica Coyle
Harmony Mastiffs
http://www.harmonymastiffs.com
Kiokeemastiffs

Registered: 04/22/08
Posts: 453
Reply with quote  #12 
Contracts are great guys--but you really can't stop people from being stupid.  A contact is only as good as the two parties who signed it.  It's been my experience--once they get the dog--they do whatever they want.  

Example:  My contract specifically states that females are NOT to be spayed until after they have at least 1 heat cycle--preferably 2.  I  I am sure to review these reasons ( i.e. prevent spay incontinence, helps with overall growth, prevention of cancers, etc) and   I discuss these points  with every puppy buyer who gets a girl.

I had a puppy buyer who spayed her female at 16 weeks ( the wife  did not want to deal with a heat cycle--and I had offered to kennel her during her heat for them--Noam fee) -the bitch developed incontinence.  Of course the  wife decides she can't deal with this problems after she finds out she is pregnant (with her 3rd child). I offer a few suggestions on how to manage the problem--the wife simply does not want the dog anymore  because of the incontience--but wants me to replace her.

Needless to say--I'm livid.  I explain that I don't owe them a puppy--what has occurred happened because of their ownership--not genetics. They have voided their health guarantee.  I will not replace her, but I will take her and re-home her. Nope--they (the wife) wants money or a new puppy--and IF  I don't do either--she is going to sell her.

 I offer to take the dog back and place her AS per my contract--I also tell her as nicely as I can--I will sue her if she sells the puppy.. The wife gets angry and shuts down all communications with me.

Forward 1 year--I am again contacted by this owner--she still has the dog--but now finds it impossible to keep her.  She just can not deal with her incontience--  So I make arrangements to go and pick her up.  I meet her and take the dog.

The bitch is fat (approximately 25-30 lbs overweight) and grossly out of shape.  I bring her home--place her on a diet, start walking her each day, --place her back on a RX for the incontinence--do some basic training with her--and re-home her.

Chole---as she is now called--is doing great--she has lost 20+ lbs--and has had absolutely NO problems with ioncontience--never has from day one since I picked her up. She is perfectly well behaved--no bad behaviors--but is afraid of Thunderstorms.  In hind sight--I think she just didn't want to deal with the dog while her Air Force Office husband is stationed over seas.

BTW--she has a "new" lab puppy she got just a few days before she dropped off her dog with me.  It's so her girls will not "miss" having a dog.  A Lab was her first choice--the husband wanted a Mastiff.

__________________
Cathy (Catie) C. Arney
4thedogs

Registered: 03/25/10
Posts: 792
Reply with quote  #13 
Quote:
Needless to say--I'm livid.  I explain that I don't owe them a puppy--what has occurred happened because of their ownership--not genetics. They have voided their health guarantee.  I will not replace her, but I will take her and re-home her. Nope--they (the wife) wants money or a new puppy--and IF  I don't do either--she is going to sell her.


Cathy, I also have clause in addition to some of my clauses that if the folks violate section ..., they have to turn over said dog to me with the registration papers, etc.  In this case, I could have gone with a court order and picked the dog up immediately~

I am sorry about your experience and sorry for Chloe, but it seems she is very happy now... lucky baby!


__________________
Monica Coyle
Harmony Mastiffs
http://www.harmonymastiffs.com
Cedarhollow

Avatar / Picture

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 1,294
Reply with quote  #14 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4thedogs

Cathy, I also have clause in addition to some of my clauses that if the folks violate section ..., they have to turn over said dog to me with the registration papers, etc.  In this case, I could have gone with a court order and picked the dog up immediately~

I am sorry about your experience and sorry for Chloe, but it seems she is very happy now... lucky baby!

Monica - Have you had to enforce this?  I am just wondering as I know of someone that has been working for 2 years to get 2 dogs back due to contract violations (similar clauses) and one dog has since been euthanized and the other spayed.  They are still fighting in the courts for possession of the dogs.  (Oh, and the one dog was spayed after an agreement was made in mediation to turn the dog over to the breeder...and the dog still hasn't been turned over.)  If they could simply go in with a court order to pick up the dogs they would have done so 2 years ago. 


__________________
Jamie Morris
Cedarhollow Mastiffs
http://www.cedarhollowmastiffs.com

Until one has been loved by an animal,
a part of one's soul remains unawakened. ~ Anatole France
4thedogs

Registered: 03/25/10
Posts: 792
Reply with quote  #15 
Nope.. never and hope I never will.  My contract was prepared by an attorney and its a signed contract, I take photocopies of driver's licenses... so, I am not sure why a court would not grant return of the dog if both parties agreed to it in the contract.  I guess the issue would be burden of proof on the breeder's part... maybe that's why it has taken these folks so long.  Certainly, not an easy process I am sure but the clause is better than nothing IMPO.

__________________
Monica Coyle
Harmony Mastiffs
http://www.harmonymastiffs.com
AbellioMastiffs

Avatar / Picture

Registered: 12/20/06
Posts: 922
Reply with quote  #16 
Monica, I'd love to have a copy of this, please!

And, yes, contract are just as good as the people who signs it.... I, unfortunately, already know this!  sigh....

__________________
Annie
Cedarhollow

Avatar / Picture

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 1,294
Reply with quote  #17 
Quote:
And, yes, contract are just as good as the people who signs it....


That pretty much sums it up, Annie!

__________________
Jamie Morris
Cedarhollow Mastiffs
http://www.cedarhollowmastiffs.com

Until one has been loved by an animal,
a part of one's soul remains unawakened. ~ Anatole France
Previous Topic | Next Topic
Print
Reply

Quick Navigation:


THANK YOU FOR VISITING OUR BOARD!!


Powered by Website Toolbox - Create a Website Forum Hosting, Guestbook Hosting, or Website Chat Room for your website.